Episode 141: Setting Healthy Boundaries as an Act of Kindness

In today’s episode, I am talking with Randi Buckley, leadership mentor, and writer about setting healthy boundaries with kindness.

There are numerous definitions of boundaries. 

One of them is that boundaries serve as expectation management. At its core, it’s quite simple: boundaries create an expectation for what I can expect from you and, conversely, what you can expect from me. 

Healthy boundaries create healthy expectations and are truly essential for any kind of relationship—but people with high functioning anxiety really struggle with setting them for a number of reasons. 

They think that people won’t like them.

There might be conflict. 

It might mean they hurt someone’s feelings.

Ouch. 

But when setting boundaries, any of the above can happen—but it doesn’t mean we shouldn’t follow through. In fact, boundaries are one way we can be both clear and kind with others. 

If that feels counterintuitive to you, I recommend giving this episode a listen. Today, I’m discussing the importance of boundaries with Randi Buckley. 

Randi is a leadership mentor, author, and podcaster who offers a different way of thinking for something more. She is also the creator of the group- and self-led programs, Healthy Boundaries for Kind People and Maybe Baby. and works with wildly intelligent individuals and organizations, and is a curator of context, nuance, and discernment. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why using mind reading to keep the peace often leads to bigger blow-ups

• What it means to carry the emotional weight for other people, how we naturally do it, and, more importantly, how to stop

• How the break down of setting boundaries is more than just saying no

• The difference between people-pleasing and kindness (and why one undermines boundaries while the other does not)

Resources mentioned:

• randibuckley.com

• Instagram: @randi.buckley

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Randi: I have many definitions for boundaries. So one of them is that boundaries are expectation management, and I think that's just being clear of what you could expect from what somebody can expect from you and what you can expect from somebody else, because then you're on the same page. If something wasn't similar, you have that moment to reconcile setting

Nancy: boundaries is way more than just saying No.

Having clear boundaries is something people with high functioning, anxiety struggle with boundaries mean, or they might not like me. There might be conflict. I might hurt someone's feelings. I'm going to have to be open and honest with them. All of those are true. And yet as today's guest Randy Buckley.

Clarity is an act of kindness and boundaries are the ultimate in clarity it's setting boundaries sounds stressful to you. I encourage you to give today's show a listen.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Randy Buckley has been teaching the class boundaries for kind people. For years. I took her course a couple of years ago and it opened my eyes to the nuance of boundary setting that often gets lost in the self-help personal development. Randy Buckley is a leadership mentor, author and podcaster.

She's the creator of healthy boundaries for kind people, the deep and maybe baby. She has been described as equal parts, Pema, Chodron, Sophia, Loren, and Clint Eastwood with us splash of George Carlin in this episode, Randy. And I talk about why using mind reading to keep the peace often leads to bigger blow ups, what it means to carry the emotional weight for other people and how we naturally do.

And how to stop the breakdown of setting boundaries. It's more than just saying no. And the difference between people pleasing and kindness, as Randy said, people pleasing, undermines boundaries.

Okay. So Randy Buckley is here with me today. I am so excited to have you hear from her. Cause she is one of she doesn't know this, but she has inspired my work a lot and is one of the people that I go to for wisdom.

Welcome

Randi: Randy. Oh, that's quite an introduction. Thank you for knowing my work at all. (laughter)

Nancy: She's also very humble. Randy is okay, so Randy is here. We're going to be talking about boundaries, which I know is something that a lot of us struggle with and in this month is our theme is control and boundaries have a lot to play in that.

Arena. So we're going to jump right in. So a lot of my clients deal with mind reading in the spirit of trying to keep the peace. When in reality, this just leads to bigger blow ups. How do you see this working in your expertise around boundaries?

Randi: There are so many assumptions that people will know our boundaries or that we know the boundaries of others.

To this, through the lens of boundaries, of course, we assume a lot and we assume incorrectly a lot and that's, that can be a lot of pain. And we think some people should just have common sense, or this is the common sense that we're all coming from the maybe even the same set of values or have the same understanding of situation.

But clarity is an act of kindness. And I think when we're trying to read minds, I think it's exactly for what you said, trying to keep the peace, or if somebody has had a very bad experience in the past, they're tiptoeing around somebody as not to ask or induce some sort of rage. So we just try to read minds has tried to bypass that step all together, but.

The risk is I believe that when reading minds, we don't actually know what we're getting into. Whether we're we think what somebody, we know it's somebody's boundaries would be what we think they should know ours. So there's a lot to open to interpretation and that's where we assign meaning that could be incredibly wrong.

But it gets us, it usually gets us into some trouble in the sense of pain.

Nancy: And so how do you, if you've grown up in an environment where that was the case, like where there might be a blow up, if you say the wrong thing or do the wrong thing, how do you calm yourself? And how do you calm yourself enough to catch yourself, mind reading and change that dynamic.

Randi: I think awareness in and of itself is huge because once you are aware, then you can be conscious and intentional and deliberate with your next action. And so often we just go on. Our default mode, those tracks. I often compare it to, not that I cross country ski at all, but it reminds me of tracks in the snow.

It's a lot easier when you're skiing so I hear to cut those tracks in the snow than to have to leave your own tracks. So you can glide. And that mind reading are those tracks in the snow that are often really established well established. So we have to get off that particular track and say, okay, am I attempting to mind reading here in?

Is that actually going to be beneficial to the situation I want to have happen? So I think the first thing is awareness. And then you get to ask and I think so often we're afraid of asking in part because we're afraid what the answer will be, but I think more often than not people appreciate our asking. Even if we get the response of course. Or you should know or something like that, we cared enough to ask. I remember my dad saying to my mom a lot because they had two very different ways of relating. Sometimes he would, oh, he'd say Nancy, I can't read minds. Just tell me. And she was, she thought, you've done this a hundred times.

Why wouldn't why would it be. But now, but they came from very different ways. So I saw that clarity was an act of kindness.

Nancy: So when you talk about the asking, can you give me an example of what I, like how you would ask?

Randi: I think there are lots of ways you could ask, so it depends on the situation a little bit, but sometimes if you just want to clarify what you think, say, so just so I'm on the same page.

You want me to come by at four to pick you up as opposed to that being an assumption. And really that to me is where I set boundaries or expectation management. Many definitions for boundaries. So one of them is that boundaries are expectation management, and I think that's just being clear of what you could expect from what somebody can expect from you and what you can expect from somebody else, because then you're on the same page.

If something wasn't You have that moment to reconcile. Oh, I actually need you to be here and then you can figure it out because I think so often we have that assumption we don't ask, we try to mind read and then we carry it with us. And then when it didn't work out, arrgh why did they tell me my time or X, Y, and Z.

And then, we plant some seeds of resentment, which tend to get watered with each subsequent interaction.

Nancy: So what if you're dealing with someone who is passive aggressive, or you grew up with someone who was passive aggressive. So there was always the message. And then the underlying message.

What they really meant. How do you, I know,

Randi: I know exactly what you mean, and I have to say that I didn't see this in my nuclear family, but I definitely sent it, saw it, my extended family. And it was fascinating to me. I think you just say, okay. Clarifying, which is, I think it just goes back to clarifying and it doesn't have to be a, oh crap.

They're being passive aggressive. How do I interpret this? I think it just be okay. So what you're saying is this right? And just having a moment, the clarity, and then

Nancy: letting it go if they don't say, if they're like, oh no I don't need you to come today. it's raining, you can stay home, but really underneath they're like, I want her to come.

If you can clarify that and say I'm not coming...

Randi: Exactly. Exactly. Okay. So I just want to make sure that I won't be here. And there's so much of that, and it leads to so much interpretation. And when dealing with wild, passive aggression, my MO is generally to go with what they say.

I might ask. I will ask me clarify, but even what they say, oh no, don't come. Something like that. I'm going to trust that they're making adult decisions. And so I will honor that decision with the hope being that if that was actually not what they meant in the future, they will tell me what they meant because I'm going to honor them.

Nancy: So it's retraining them in a sense,

Randi: right and ourselves, I don't have to interpret, they said this. I would like to trust that they are able to say what they mean. What they say very Dr. Seuss. Yeah.

Nancy: Cause then it's sitting with that uncomfortableness. Because I think we get something out of the, oh no.

What they're really meaning is this, I noticed I think about this, my husband and I. Have a dynamic. He was raised in that passive aggressive, and I was raised in the blunt, tell it like it is. And so when my mom says, no, don't come. He's oh no, she really wants us to come.

That's what she's really saying. And he won't ever believe what really comes out of people's mouths. And I think that's just a fascinating, cause it's so entrenched in his brain that people don't speak the truth.

Randi: Exactly. And that my parents that's come from the different backgrounds.

So it was very easy depending on what grandparents were dealing with, around what the expectation would be. And so I just wanted to be clear.

Nancy: Yeah. And to have the, I think to have that in your mind of what they're saying is that's what I'm going with, to have that clarity.

Randi: Right.

And I think it's a gift to people to honor them. Okay. That's what you're saying. I in, I want to be able to honor that other than undermining or second guessing that, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, because that is a lot of energy.

Randi: Yeah. A LOT of energy!

Nancy: So how did you get into boundary work?

Randi: It's something people often expect me to have this amazing story of how I had terrible boundaries and I have it actually, I grew up in a military family, so I was moving a lot and I saw the difference largely in my sister and I, my sister made moved to a new place and my sister immediately wanted to make friends.

Understandably. She was a little kid, one, definitely friends. And I think often she was much more, yeah. Flexible with her boundaries in order to connect with other people and make friends that felt more important to her. And I was much more okay with the, what those boundaries are, I didn't think in terms of boundaries at that point, this is a boundary, but I thought, oh no, you were probably have different interests so we can be nice to each other, but we're probably not going to start a friendship, a deep friendship.

And I watched that evolve in different ways. And she has given me permission to say this. So I'm not. Be trying anything, but she later on got into a series of relationships that were very unhealthy with men who did it honor her boundaries. And it was so the boundary work then was all about what I couldn't say to her because there were really intense situations where I would have probably, she probably would have cut me off at it actually said what I thought at the time.

And then I noticed at the same time that clients were dealing with parallel issues, maybe not to the same extreme or intensity. But, so I saw this extreme situations where boundaries were being honored. In what could be going on. And then we could apply that learning what, all the things I wish I could say to my sister, I started applying to my clients and then I started, I just went ahead and created a body of work out of it

Nancy: because it's called healthy boundaries for kind people, healthy boundaries,

Randi: yeah.

And my sister is amazing. She's a Spitfire, she's one of the kindest people you will ever meet. But for some reason, though, it changed those she’s still kind, but. People took a lot of advantage of that kindness and it didn't have to be that way

Nancy: at all, just because I know you have a difference between kind and nice.

Tell me that. Sure.

Randi: If I start going into a thesis, please cut me off. But I do think there's a profound difference between nice and kind and I'll preface that by saying I think nice gets a bad rap. Okay. I think nice could be manners. Nice. Can be nice for me. This is about making people, other people comfortable.

So it's hospitality. But kindness is about caring. About your values and their values and not letting other things get in the way. So if I have a strong value for compassion, I'm not going to let niceness me making the other people comfortable for in order for me to be able to be compassionate with you.

So whether that's a value of justice or all those other things, for me, kindness will always Trump. Nice, because that is far more important to me. That's something I just have, I deeply value that. So kindness or excuse me, niceness can get in the way. And there's certainly nothing wrong with bringing somebody a cup of coffee or something, saying, please, and thank you.

But it's when it starts to override kindness or it gets in the way of a healthy relationship, that's where I started to have an issue. So I, my really quick thing I say is niceness is about. Not making waves. And kindness is really more about changing the world.

Nancy: Ooh. I love that. Wow.

Oh good. That's really cool. Because you're right. I had heard you say that difference, but I hadn't because the nice does get a bad right. And and sometimes it deserves it. Yes. Yeah. But not always. Yeah. But I like the, the way you couch it with the other people, it's really helpful because I think that is I think that is a difference, and I know a lot of people, that's why I always was attracted to healthy boundaries for kind people.

Cause that kind of yeah, I want to be kind but boundaries, that doesn't go together in my mind. but it does in your framework.

Randi: And then, and when I start working with folks, that's usually one of the first questions I ask them. Okay. Tell me what boundaries means to you. And more often than not, it's this horrible thing, which if you're kind or where you value kindness or compassion or whatever your values are, you're not going to do those things that have you feel unkind, so if boundaries feel like this unkind, nasty thing or an imposition, or that you have to be a real jerk in order to do it.

There's no way you're going to have them. You value the you value kindness far more. But what I'm trying to, my general thing is boundaries are an act of kindness to the point we made know. Which helps people really, it's almost like giving people an instruction manual to get you at your best. Oh, okay.

This is the framework, how it has the optimum optimization or functioning, and I'd like you to be able to get that. And to me, that's an act of kindness.

Nancy: So what brings people oh, I am having boundary problems and I'm sure they're not all the way to where your sister was.

They're more, further down, but what are some examples of people being like this isn't working for me anymore?

Randi: One thing I had not anticipated and ends up being really big and I hadn’t anticipated because it wasn't my experience, but relationships with mothers seem to be really Impacted by a lack of boundaries.

So relationships with mothers, family relationships when boundaries are between work and home, start to feel very blurred, feel like they're not able to speak up for themselves or start to feel like a doormat or have felt like a doormat forever. And they heard there's a way to feel different .

I think that's really. Comes down to when you're just tired of the situation being what it's bad. You hope you have some hope. So we take that up and we run with it. Cause it absolutely can be different.

Nancy: Do you think people can do boundaries if they don't believe it? . If that, like I have to come to you saying I really, I know it's boundaries.

That's my problem.

Randi: Oh no. I think they can, because I think what they find out is actually it isn’t. One of the things I tell my clients is if somebody tells you they don't believe in boundaries, believe them. (laughter) Because that probably means they aren’t going to honor yours, but what we do is we often then redefined boundaries to something that's quite not just palatable, but sometimes you crave Ooh, actually that would be amazing.

So often we don't recognize this or whatever's going on as the need for boundaries or for better boundaries. But once we define it as such. We make it something that is aspirational and attainable because it's

Nancy: I even think about my own life, instead of being the clear of, I want to sit here and read this book for the next 30 minutes

I'll come down and just, and do something else or putz around. I don't engage with my husband. Or I'll sit there and I'll not tell him what I'm doing. And he's Hey, I thought we were going to watch a show or something. And I'm like, oh no, I want to read this book. And then I get testy about it.

But it's because I say, I want to sit here and read this book for 30 minutes and it's so simple when you do it,

Randi: And it gets exhausting and sometimes it feels why do I always have to be the one who takes the initiative? And I don't know if that's the case that you're speaking about, but I think sometimes we're exhausted for always being the one who has to do the work. Then it's not fair. And my thought is, if it matters to you, it's worth it.

If it has meaning if it matters to you, even if you're the one doing it more often than not, or more than your fair share of whatever that is. It's worth it because it's important to you.

Nancy: Yeah. Because a lot of times that comes up because I'm not owning that. I want to sit here and read the book. I'm vague, I know I don't want to watch a show with him and I want to read the book, but I haven't really owned that yet in that being kind to myself to say, this is what I want to do.

So I'm going to own it instead of let me yeah. Putz around, over here doing other stuff. I don't know right now if that's clear, but

Randi: oh, I get that. Absolutely. And sometimes we don't know, you might not be owning it and you might not be ready to like, yes. Yeah. Oh, I'm not being productive. So it's almost hard to commit to it.

When you feel like maybe you should be doing something

Nancy: that is more likely the problem.

Randi: There are a variety of scenarios

Nancy: On your Instagram that you talked about carrying the emotional weight for other people. Yeah, and I love that phrase. And I hadn't really thought about that is a lot of what my clients do, but I hadn't really thought about it like that. So can you tell me, what does that look like and how it hurts us?

Randi: Absolutely. I see people trying to protect other people a lot from pain disappointment. So they try to carry the burden for them. They try to, I say, carry emotional weight of others. We try to protect them from having to feel it or process it. And that's painful for us because it's not ours. And I think it's feels like an act of kindness or compassion, but we're not letting them, if we try to lift that and carry it, take it off their shoulders or off their plate.

They're not getting the full experience that they might need to. Be with it to process it, to decide they have at the decisions really to heal from that experience. So what happens is we know when we haven't worked on something, it comes right back around until we get it again. Or until we actually, oh, it keeps coming back up.

But that's painful for us then, because we're trying to carry something. That's not ours. You take disproportionate responsibility for something that we might not have control over. And I know your theme is control. So we're trying to control something that is not ours to control, and we do it because we're trying to be a good person.

We do it because we're trying to be sensitive. Maybe they've had a lot going on. I think it's important to see the distinction of seeing. Or the distinction of, we can recognize somebody's pain. We can see it. We can be with it without having to take it on as our own. And I think so often folks who value compassion, say I see this, so I shall carry it for them.

And that's a very big difference

Nancy: and we do it in subtle ways. It's like it doesn't have to be the big oh, someone's grieving and I'm going to carry their grief for them or my kid fell. And so I'm going to, comfort him. It's little tiny ways that shows up in our marriages and in our relationships where we protect people.

Randi: And that's, and I don't want to, three, there's a lot of nuance in that too. I'm not saying, let people fend for themselves. There are situations, there's a lot of nuance, but I think, and I love the idea, as you and I have talked about context, nuance and discernments are important to me.

So I think it's really important to look at the nuance and context and discern what's right for you. But I think more often than not, we in those little situations, it's almost like. It sounds like the inverse of microaggression, sort of other people it's we're constantly taking that on in order to protect somebody.

Yeah.

Nancy: And some of that comes up in the, even in the like back to our question before about the I totally lost it. The need Asking for what you need so that I would like, oh, can you clean the kitchen? And instead, and he's going to be like, oh, I have so much to do, blah, blah, blah. I don't have time to clean the kitchen rather than just letting him struggle with that because I have so much to do too.

And I really need the kitchen done. I'll make room in my calendar to get the kitchen done. On top of everything I have to do instead of being like, okay, he's going to have to figure it out. It's going to be uncomfortable for him. And that's okay. And I think that happens all the time.

Randi: Absolutely.

Absolutely. And, we could also just say, you know what, maybe the kitchen doesn’t get cleaned right now, a lot of other things, but we have this, it has to happen. Or it has illness illnesses, black, white. It happens where it doesn't they do it, or I have to do it. And I think when we make those little tiny decisions throughout the day It builds up because we're all here I go again.

Let's take care of it. Ah, it's not worth bothering somebody else. It's not worth the headache, but that adds up.

Nancy: And I think that's having the awareness of why am I doing this now? Is it because, my inner critic is telling me I have to clean up the kitchen or is it also just because I want to protect them?

I think that's another question to be asking how much we when we're used to doing that, mind reading that fits right in.

Randi: Yeah, exactly. And I think a lot of that boils down to when I call the pathology of have crappy boundaries or for boundary challenges. It's really, we have a fear of disappointing others.

We have a fear of missing out. We have questions around worthiness. And for me a lot, or we've never seen boundaries model, or you can have them, those are my four biggies, but to me, they all boil down to my fifth one, which is fear for, and thinking if I don't clean the kitchen, they're going to get frustrated and, fast forward a long time they leave.

So it's almost like we're constantly trying to be saying people's good graces to protect them, but also to protect ourselves.

Nancy: That's very well said

I know in the work I've done with clients on boundaries, they can set the boundary, but then that's just the fricking beginning. So much more to it than that. Can you talk a little bit to that?

Randi: Sure. So I think sometimes it feels like so much work to set the boundary, whether you've finally got the words out.

. So it feels like you've climbed this mountain and you're at the top and one and done. And what usually happens, particularly in pre-existing relationships, meet, a spouse, a partner, a family, as opposed to somebody who you run into at the store before, when we used to be able to go to stores.

Because we're in we're instituting of boundary, or I like to say nurturing a boundary, it is cultivating and nurturing the boundary, but. What often happens is pushback because either people didn't hear you, they didn't understand it. They're confused by it and went completely over their head.

You'd never said it before, so they didn't really recognize it. But what happens then is we tend to get pushed back and say, forget it. See, they said, no. They said no to my boundary and push back. I think it's a couple of things here. I think it's really important to know, in my opinion, pushback as part of the process.

Push back means, oh, wow. What you said was met with something, even if it wasn't the desired response you wanted it, it found a home. It's almost like a radio or a radio signal. If I'm an antenna, you may not have gotten the clear message, but it gives us a chance to reiterate and be perhaps even more clear.

So often I think when people get pushed back, they say, Declare a boundary, they get pushed back and they say, see, I can't have you. I can't have boundaries. They won't allow me, which I'll get to in a second. Or they won't be able to give me my boundaries or something that spirit. So push back is part of the process and pushback, usually doesn't feel.

In my experience, but I think we can reframe it as well. I was heard possibly for the first time or something got through to where it made sense to them. Maybe not total sense, but that was heard so we can reiterate and we can revisit we can discuss whatever that is. And sometimes it just needs a reminder, but so often, and pre-existing relationships because they'd never, this was new.

It didn't really register. It didn't really register.

Nancy: Yeah, because none of the reasons you gave for why it didn't register were I didn't want to do it or that they didn't want to do it, or they didn't care.

Randi: And that could be a reason. They're right. More often than not exact, it's just, they were confused or sometimes we tune out, right? Like the Peanuts. Wah Wah Wah. So I think that is a lot of it, but then we're so quick to say, forget it. I can't have it. So you set a boundary, you might feel good that you did it. You get pushed back instead of abandoning that boundary, you get to show you're serious about it.

Because if we don't honor our own boundaries, why would anybody else honor it? Because they don't see it. There's no role modeling of what that boundary actually is. And. And this was what I was referring to. I think so often people think others have to like the boundaries or they have to get buy-in from other people to be able to have the boundary and no water at the boundary.

They don't have to like it. And sometimes people who don't like it initially will actually like it later. Sometimes it's new for them at first, but then they really come to respect the fact that you were able to say what was right. And how would you actually gave me this clear instruction because you value our relationship.

So I think it's not this, it might feel good initially. And then if we talk about my work boundary hangovers, and just be like afterwards, and you might have to take a little break and that doesn't mean you let up your boundaries, but you don't necessarily have to actively pursue it. Just maintain and, let yourself just if you overworked the muscle, let it rest right.

And go back out there.

Nancy: Yeah, I really, because it's sitting with the uncomfortableness of giving them their time to respond. Giving them their time to process and do take it in, I can remember, and this happened. 15 years ago, I can remember driving up. I was telling my mentor that I was leaving the practice to go start my own.

And I knew it was not going to go over well, and as I was driving up there, it's something just hit me. And I was like, she's allowed to be upset about this. Absolutely. And it was just like this totally freeing moment of Wow. Like she's, I don't have to make this all better for her. Like she's allowed and she probably will be upset in that makes sense.

That she'd be upset. And even if it doesn't matter because she's allowed to have that reaction. And that was just such an aha for me to recognize, I didn't have to justify it or prove that it was okay. I could just be like, this is what I'm doing and you're going to be uncomfortable. And here we go.

Randi: How respectful of you that you let her have that reaction and recognize that. That might be a natural response that you get that. And it was also a great example, what we were talking about earlier for you not trying to carry the, her emotional weight. I'm maybe the practice, I'll be on call or you can, oh, let me give you a necklace.

Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. And we do that jump in and try to make it better before we even give them a chance. Because we're uncomfortable before we even know if they're uncomfortable, we're already, or I am already jumping in to make it better,

Randi: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah. Trust ourselves that if somebody is going to be upset, we will handle it.

We will be able to, we weren't the children. Or no longer the child that may have been overwhelmed by that situation or scared, but that we hopefully probably have better coping skills. Now then if something comes up, we'll be able to dance in the moment with whatever that is in handling.

Nancy: Yeah.

Yeah. Cause that's another one of my favorite reminders is I'm not eight years old. Yes. And then every, it is fascinating to me that every time I say that to myself, you're 47. It's whoa, like it's I forget. Yeah. Cause I'm in, I'm an eight year old in my head, when I'm thinking about it.

And then when I read my oh yeah.

Randi: I'm 47 too so I totally get it.

Nancy: We touched on this already. I still want to go back to it because people pleasing is such a big part of my client's world and where they get a lot of ease to their anxiety is by making sure the rest, pushing back and making sure the rest of the world is okay. And I do a lot of talking about being kind to yourself.

That's a big. Part of my work. So you say again on Instagram, because I love your Instagram where you said people pleasing, undermines kindness. Yes. Which I think is the opposite of what a lot of people think. And so tell me more.

Randi: I have a very rebellious nature, (laughter)

Nancy: which is one reason that I love your stuff

Randi: I have to point that out. So I think ultimately people pleasing is about. When you base your self-worth on other people's reactions, as opposed to what you feel based on your own reaction, you really look outside yourself to see, to measure your worthiness. And so we people please. So that is an attempt at and I'm not, I don't want to be right.

People pleasers. I think we all have that tendency and there's, it's a survival mechanism for a lot of people and we've learned it, but we don't necessarily have to carry that. So I just. Put that out there that you're not a bad person. I don't think you're terrible. If you are a people pleaser.

I think it's very common in people. Pleasers have really big challenges with boundaries when we're people pleasing, our kindness might not be as authentic as it could be. One for people pleasing. We're doing this to try to control their reaction as opposed to necessarily coming from our. It doesn't mean there might not be overlap or it can't be both, but it's undermining our kindness because we're trying to make us be safe as opposed to just act an act of kindness for the sake of being kind.

So that's the big version, big umbrella version of that. I could just dissect it a little bit more, but that's a big wake up call for a lot of people pleasers. We rationalize people pleasing as I'm trying to be nice indoor kind, nice endocrine. And I think those are both in there, but really if we're trying to manipulate a situation is that act of kindness.

So I want people's kindness to be free, to be kind, just to be free to do what feels like an expression of their kindness, not to necessarily manipulate the situation even. Feels like it's for protection it's to try to avoid a response, your kindness can just be without having to have any sort of payback, so to speak sort of result of that kindness.

And that's what I mean by that. I love that

Nancy: because it is, it is a form of control without recognizing it, like it's and, control gets such a negative connotation, but it's a sense of just taking back control of your environment. The people pleasing that I can. I can feel more the master of this situation. If I know I can people please, when in reality you're turning it on it’s head, you could be the master of this situation by being clear and setting boundaries and only doing things that are coming from your heart.

Randi: Exactly. For me, I. I, I know sometimes I've been on the other end where people have been trying to be nice. So they invited me along, something they really want me to go along to that feels awful to find that out later disingenuous, it felt, and I get what they're trying to do, but I'd much rather somebody not trying to people please me, and be honest, or, just be themselves or not have to put out this phony act.

Just in order to try to protect my feelings cause that I've been on the other end of that. And it's no fun either. So I absolutely agree with you that it is an attempt to control and get that good, get good feedback about ourselves, right?

Nancy: Yeah. And that in is also the, like the person who invited you along, wasn't allowing you to have your emotional was picking up your emotional baggage rather than letting you be disappointed. If you were going to be, they don't even know you were going to be disappointed.

Randi: To be honest, I would have been disappointed to me.

I'd rather be disappointed than somebody being disingenuous with me. Authentic. I can deal with that. I can heal from that. I'm sure it can heal from both. That just feels a lot cleaner in my world.

Nancy: Yeah. That's interesting. Do you think that boundaries can be too strong?

Randi: Yes. So when I do the healthy boundaries, kind of people work, I have lots of analogies and metaphors I use, and one of them is boundaries are like a spine and they can bend and flex to support you.

Because I think we have this idea about boundaries of once you've drawn your line in the sand, that's it's just. Page almost, but then circumstances might change. You might you might not want to see a certain person at the family reunion, but you might want to see everybody else because we don't want to see that one person.

We won't give ourselves the experience of seeing everybody else. That's a real nutshell version of an example I use, but boundaries can be, if they're too. Stiff like a spine that can't move with you. And so you're really stuck in this rigid situation that you are, if your boundaries are too firm that don't have an, you're not getting any of them for context, nuance or discernment.

We know that spines when they're flexible. So my sister is an acupuncturist and I use to do Ayurveda years. And we, so we talk about. Healing traditions around the world. And in both of those traditions, they say something to the effect of you are as healthy as your spine. And there are certainly folks for whom that is not the case.

And that probably don't appreciate that. But for other people that is the case. And so I see boundaries like a spine. They give you, they let you stand tall. They provide support, but they can move in the ways you want to move. And allow that to happen. So when our boundaries are too firm first of all, we're not recognizing growth or evolution in our life.

Think situations may have changed, we may have changed and it really then limits what we are allowing ourselves to do, or the type of relationships we can have with other people.

Nancy: Awesome. I'm glad I asked that question. Because I love your that's. One thing I love about your work is there's in the coaching and therapy world boundaries is full of shame and, super strong messages, like the example of the family you gave, don't go see your family if they're not supporting you.

And there isn't any room for that gray nuance stuff that I think is necessary. Healthy boundaries. So that was one thing that really drew me to your work, because I know there is, I have felt the shame from boundary work of, people saying stop doing that. You need to set a firm boundary and what's wrong with you that you can't, and that it can get turned back on you really quickly.

Instead of being the kindness around it, right?

Randi: And there are some things you might be very black and white about, and that might not never change, but if they aren't there aren't, be, find, understand what those boundaries are so that you feel like your values are being honored.

And then to me, that's another definition that our boundaries, our values turned into. And so we can then live that thing in our lives and make sure that other people are honoring that too. So I think there's a whole lot of nuance in there has to be because we are nuanced creatures.

Nancy: Because if I say to my husband, I went to read this book at six o'clock every night.

That's my boundary. I'm making this up, obviously he may say, oh but I have a meeting. It starts at six. I need, what about the kids or whatever, and then, but so we can negotiate that, but I've still set my values, my intention out there on the line of what I want.

Randi: Your value is to have that time and, reading and self care, whatever that is for you, that you're doing by reading at six o'clock every night, and sometimes another value might trump it for the health of your children. So it's not that we're so rigid of, no, this is my time. And if it, if you're constantly interrupted, it certainly feels like you have to be rigid and there might be times where you need to be a little bit more rigid, but if we can ebb and flow with what's important to you.

We're set.

Nancy: Yeah, that's awesome. Okay. So tell me more about how people can work with you with healthy boundaries for kind people and where you are with all of that

Randi: work. Sure. I'm currently running the healthy boundaries for kind people cohort right now. I tend to run it once a year.

It's about a three and a half month program that we do At this point, at the time we're recording this, we don't know what next month looks like. What's happening. When, so my anticipated running it again is in January, 2020, but I am on Instagram in, I also train people to do the work, train people, to facilitate healthy boundaries for kind people, whether in their home with their clients And their office with themselves.

Some people just want to go way, you want to take a deep dive into the work. So we do the healthy ventures for kind of people to sole traitor coaching, facilitator certification. And I do work one-on-one with folks, but I also have many coaches or folks who have done that training who are, I've put my stamp of approval on their understanding of the.

Oh, okay.

Nancy: Okay, cool. So you have certified people, not certified, but trained people in the healthy boundaries for kind work that you can refer people to. Yeah. And then can anyone do the facilitator training or do they have to have a coach. A license or

Randi: I prefer somebody who's taken healthy boundaries for kind people.

The course. But if you're willing to do a little bit of work to come up to speed on some of the general thing, cause it helps once you've applied that work yourself, what it looks like. And to know if that's what you really want. Spent a lot of time on, get to know me a little bit. It's possible, but generally I prefer that people have done the core curriculum.

Nancy: And then another thing that I originally got attracted to for was the maybe baby, do you still do that?

Randi: Yeah.. Thank you for asking. It's very dear to me. Maybe Baby is a program that I put myself through and then created for folks who were ambivalent about motherhood that heard the whisper of maybe.

And that was very much my case. I was not, I'd like to kids. I worked at a camp for 30 years. But I'd certainly w I did not want to become a mom. I want to, I used to joke around people and made them a little uncomfortable. They said, what are you having kids? And I'd say, I just want to be the rich eccentric, I was not fulfilling one of those that they didn't ask me more questions, but It's a really big question.

There are very few places. I think you could turn to where you have unbiased conversation. So maybe journey is something that I work with people one-on-one, but I also have a self-study if they want to do it on their own to find out what is true for you. And then how can you lean into that truth?

All the more, because there's so many fears about motherhood. What if we actually regret it later? I don't re or if I decide now, or, what if I don't regret having kids or just because I regret having kids with, if I regret not having kids or becoming a parent, but everybody in our lives generally has a hope or wish that we do, or, oh, it'll change your mind.

Everybody has this bias. So it's really important to me that women have. As unbiased as possible space to explore that if you are in a partnership with somebody and that's how you want to potentially obtain parenthood, that at least, where you stand B before, I think somebody feel like they have to make that decision together, which if you're in a partnership, it's probably good to consult.

We talked about expectation management, but it's really nice to know where you are, where you stand first. Yes. So maybe baby is very dear to me

Nancy: Because that I had already made my decision not to have kids when I've saw Maybe Baby, And I was very like, I don't want to have kids. I don't want to have kids.

I don't want to have kids, but then when I hit my mid thirties, there was the whisper that came and that was like maybe. And you just made that new, normal, just seeing what you were writing about maybe baby at the time. It just normalized that for me, that I can still make this decision and it's okay.

That I still have that whisper. Absolutely. That was so refreshing.

Randi: Oh good. Because I think if you've ever had an ambivalence or you're somebody who deals with ambivalence sometimes. Ambivalence will always be a part of your equation. So we're always looking for this perfect answer that I have no doubt or, we care other people say that.

I did decide that was true for me to have a child and even going into, I had an emergency C-section, but even going into that, and they're still like and at that point, it was pretty much happening, but I really want to be clear on that though. I don't have this secret idea of making everybody see the light. This is the right path for you. I think if we honor, what's true for us in any context around parenthood boundaries, the whole world just goes a little bit more into alignment because we're a greater truth in general.

So that's really important to me and I, and let me just say, I think women who are not direct parent are some of the most undervalued people on the planet. Oh, absolutely. It's a huge role. And it's so important. And I think it's a lot of us think about some of our favorite women in our lives.

They're those people who could be that person to us.

Nancy: Yeah, because it is a because it still comes up, I'm well past giving birth, but I'll, every now and then I'll be like, oh, maybe we should adopt, or I have all this extra caregiving. And I think about your program, even though I didn't do it, but I still think no, this is normal.

It's okay to be, to have this. And we're going to figure out ways. And that was the cool thing. Now that I just last night, like we get together every quarter with them. Nieces and nephews, and they're all, my oldest, my youngest is going to turn 18 tomorrow. So they're all in college and they want to get together with us and play games on zoom is just the best, that, and that I could have made that an intention to fulfill that, because I wanted to be.

The cool, eccentric aunt and I'm not there, but the rest of it, and so I think that, yeah, I just thank you for doing that. And I, if anyone is interested, it's a awesome program and I'm so glad. Because there isn't anything like that out there. Because I looked.

Randi: I was looking. And so that's why I created it.

And, I want to talk to my mom, but since you'd be having a good year met, of course she wanted a grandchild. You'll miss it late and you'll regret it later. I remember hearing that and thank you for honoring that. I do think it's really important. And thank you for being that person to your nieces and nephews.

And, motherhood is not just about children. Regenerative creatures. And that comes out of, creation and need to be nurturing or whatever that

Nancy: definition is. Yeah. And it does, and then maybe baby even goes into the boundaries. I'm saying like, you can see how those are connected, right?

Randi: For me, everything boils down to boundaries. It's really the infrastructure for how we want to live. So that is. That's very key for me.

Nancy: Oh, thank you so much, Randy, for giving us a little intro into boundaries. I know you have a ton more to say. So tell us where people can find you.

Randi: Sure. My website is probably the best place, Randy, with an eye Randibuckley.com and on Instagram I, Randy dot Buckley.

Yeah, those are the two best.

Nancy: Awesome. And I will have those links in the show notes to everything. And thanks again for taking the time to chat with us.

Randi: What a pleasure. Thank you so much for inviting me. It's such a great conversation.

Nancy: There were so many wonderful takeaways from the show I learned so much, but the part I want to revisit is at the end, when she talks about people, pleasing and kindness, because it's hard to admit that while our desire to please might appear as if it's coming from an altruistic place, it is most likely coming from a place of control, controlling their reaction or controlling the conflict.

It's not from a genuine grounded place. This is so hard to see in ourselves. And it is so important to start recognizing where we're human and where we do really human things based on the lessons we learned growing up and what we've learned throughout our lives, being aware of our motivations and being honest with ourselves all back to that self loyalty is so important.

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Episode 140: Why I Am Leaving Facebook & Instagram

In today’s episode, I talk about my recent debate on the positives and negatives of social media, and why I am signing off my social media accounts.

Hanging with a friend in the backyard.

Cooking dinner. 

Relaxing with my husband. 

Driving to pick up food and sitting at the traffic light.

During a conference call with a colleague. 

Countless times throughout the day when I’m feeling uninspired, vigilant, or bored. 

These are just a few of the times social media has infiltrated my life in the past few days. 

Social media continually takes me away from the experiences and relationships I really value—over and over again. 

The thing about social media is that it's supposed to make you feel more connected to people you care about... but ends up taking you away from the moments you spend with them.

That’s why I’m leaving social media. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• The thought process that went behind leaving social media for good

• 3 main reasons why I wanted to stay on social media (and what I realized)

• The 2 rules I used to be more intentional and thoughtful about my decision to leave

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Hanging with a friend in the backyard, cooking dinner, relaxing with my husband, driving to pick up food and sitting at a traffic light during a conference call with a colleague countless times throughout the day, when feeling uninspired, vigilant or bored. These are just a few of the times. Social media has infiltrated my life in the past few days.

Social media continually takes me away from the experiences and relations. I really value over and over again. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. And I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

The thing about social media is that it's supposed to make you feel more connected to people you care about, but it ends up taking you away from the moments you spend with them. And that's why I've always had a love, hate relationship with social media. Specifically with Instagram and Facebook. My relationship has always been codependent and on.

I've tried to limit my use. I've tried to set safeguards around it. I tried to use hashtag safe, social as Bailey Parnell talks about with me in episode 129. And yet here I am, again, feeling overwhelmed and controlled by social media. But this time I'm making a change this time. I'm leaving social media.

As of July 1st, I have left social media rather than just disappearing though. I wanted to share my decision making process in case maybe you too have a love, hate relationship with social media. Yes, social media has become the way I stay connected with friends and family across the country. Keep up with businesses.

I love reading articles and getting news. I watched the Facebook ads on TV and I feel giddy inside because the mission of connecting with loved ones is so warm and fuzzy, but there's a dark underbelly that has just become too much for me to support any more. First a little background in early May when I started contemplating leaving, I decided I wanted to do a little pre-work my tendency being the black and white thinker that I am is to make the decision to leave and then poof shut everything down the next day.

But I wanted to be more intentional, more thoughtful. I had two rules pay attention and question everything. As I was observing and debating, I kept running up against three main reasons that I should stay. So I wanted to break those down for you with my thoughts, the first one. I'll miss out on too much stuff.

I've lived here for many years believing I just can't leave. How will I stay in contact with people? Keeping with my two rules of pay attention and question everything. I started noticing who I was keeping in contact with and who I wanted to stay in contact with. One of my favorite parts about Facebook is seeing my old high school classmates and keeping up with their families.

I will definitely miss that. But I noticed how social media feeds the idea of doing something when you aren't really doing something. For example, social media makes you feel like you're connecting with people, but you really aren't. Liking my high school friends son's graduation picture gives me a momentary hit of closeness.

But in reality, I don't even know her son's name and a big reason I liked the post is because I didn't want her to think that I didn't like the post. Yeah. That sounds harsh. But as I started paying attention to how I interacted with social media, it made me so full of myself, the idea that I needed to like something, because what would they think or that I needed to share my new haircut because of course, I mean the whole world wants to see my hair.

As I started noticing my tendency to do performative posting. I started questioning why I was posting and if I could reach out to an actual person rather than write some generic social media post, I started reaching out more off of social media, calling my aunt or texting with my cousin. I actually reached out to one of my high school besties via text, and we've been going back and forth ever since.

Building actual connections off of social media has enriched my life just in the past month. Also realizing I don't need my life to be publicized. I don't need to get likes and comments to feel seen, heard, or celebrated. I want to be celebrated, seen and heard by those. I see in my life, not my hundreds of followers, but those in my inner circle.

And starting to build relationships off of social media. I might miss the occasional birth or wedding announcement. And then I think about life before social media, we missed those announcements and we survived. There's something I noticed throughout this past month as I was debating to leave or not, I am steeped in Facebook, propaganda.

Similar to how my eyes keep getting opened around systemic racism and white privilege. My eyes keep getting opened about how we have this tool that everyone uses run by people with questionable ethics. That makes us feel like we're doing something. When we aren't social media takes me out of my present moment, life away from those I love the most. And for the most part leaves me feeling like shit yet the social media machine convinces us that we need it to keep in touch with others. So in response to the reason I will miss out on too much stuff, I'm committed to building a support group off of social media to go deeper with actual real life relationships and not just throw something up on social media for a pseudo sense of connection.

Reason. Number two, it's a necessary evil. I mean, what about your business? So definitely I need to address the business piece. I do run an online business and for the past 10 years, I've been very diligent about posting to Facebook and Instagram. I rarely pay for ads, but it has happened here and there.

And yet very few of my clients come from social media. This was another shocker considering I had swallowed the lie that I needed, social media to run a business. I might get 20 likes on a post, but you take out my mom, my best friend, my husband, nieces, and nephews. I probably have five people I don't know, personally engaging.

I don't think I've gotten one paying client from social media. And even if my business was huge on social media, I would still be trying to move my business off the space. It might take longer, it might be harder, but I feel strongly enough about this exodus, that my business is not a reason enough to stay

I've also found that too often. I use social media as a way to check the box as if I'm moving my business forward. When it really isn't. For example, a couple of weeks ago, I wrote a podcast called I got this. The scenario in that podcast would have been a simple social media post. I would have thrown it up on social media right after it happened and never done anything more with it.

But instead I took the story and looked at it from a deeper angle and boom, it was a whole podcast episode since making this decision to let go of social media, I have been more engaged and more excited about my business. So in response to the reason it is a necessary evil, what about your business? I'm committed to finding new ways to reach people, building deeper, more meaningful content and brainstorming, building a support group off of social media.

And number three, you can make more change by being on it rather than being off of it. You have to join the system to break. And then the argument that held me up for awhile, you have to be part of the system to change it. I kept getting stuck here, nodding my head in agreement and saying yes. And then I came to this conclusion.

I work with clients who have high functioning anxiety, high functioning anxiety is all about hustling, performing for approval, comparison, being vigilant and staying alert. And these are all the things that social media encourages us. Social media. It's not helpful for people with high-functioning anxiety.

In fact, there is little redeeming about it. So me showing up on social media feels a little bit like me going to a brewery every night and having a couple of drinks while telling people that alcohol is bad. Yes. I hear the argument. That is where the people who need me are, but at the same time, at some point I have to practice what I preach.

I have to practice self loyalty. I have to be honest with myself, social media. It's not healthy for me. I don't believe it's healthy for my clients either. And I also believe they can make that decision for themselves. I believe I can make more changes and help the greater good by stepping off of social media.

So in response to the reason you have to join the system to break it, I'm committed to sharing more about my story with social media and why I'm breaking up with it. I'm also committed to learning more about social media and anxiety and learning ways to decrease anxiety when it comes to social media use.

Overall, I have found social media. It's a bit of a charlatan. It makes me feel like I'm connected to people when I'm really, I'm not, it makes me feel like I'm contributing to the world in an impactful way when I'm really not. It makes me feel like I'm hip and happening and in touch with the larger world.

And when in reality, I'm hearing one small echo chamber. So that is my well thought out, why I'm leaving social media podcast episode. My goal is not to convince you to leave social media, but rather to convince you to bring some intentionality to your social media use, to encourage you to practice the two rules, pay attention and question.

---

Episode 139: Why Bother, What's the Point, and What To Do Next

In today’s episode, I am talking with Jennifer Louden, author, and pioneer in the personal growth movement about taking imperfect action towards our goals.

What’s the point? 

Why bother? 

Who cares? 

It will never change…

Have you ever caught yourself uttering those words? 

Perhaps you’ve said these to yourself when considering a career change or launching a creative project or even making a self-care plan. I know I have! 

These questions can also be considered along the lines of what’s happening across the nation right now with social justice and equality. 

Sometimes, we are so afraid of taking imperfect action and doing it wrong that we simply don’t bother at all. Instead, we stay stuck by not taking action at all and rehashing the ways we did it wrong in the past. 

But we can do it differently. 

We can take small, measured, imperfect action. 

We can make progress toward desire.

Today’s guest, Jennifer Louden, is an expert in doing it differently. She is a personal growth pioneer and author of Why Bother?, helping readers discover the desire for what’s next in their lives. As an entrepreneur and educator, Jennifer has offered women’s retreats for over 25 years and reaches over 20,000 subscribers weekly. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why Jennifer was inspired to write the book, Why Bother?

• How she realized that “holding her mistakes close” was actually holding her back

• How our past—especially our family of origin—affects our current lives

• Why it’s important to go beyond the idea that all of our creative endeavors must be useful or practical (and how that belief holds us back from trying new things)

Resources mentioned:

• JenniferLouden.com

• Jennifer’s Book, Why Bother?

• Instagram: @jenlouden

• Facebook: Jennifer Louden

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Jennifer: What we know from the way our brains are built is it seems like it's much more of our default to be hard on ourselves than kind to ourselves. We do have, self-compassion built into our brain structure. We could call it, but it seems to need much more practice in activation. Then the ability to be critical.

Nancy: Why bother.

What's the point to what comes next? When I recorded this podcast with Jennifer Louden we were asking those questions in the context of a midlife crisis and personal development. But today, as I typed those questions, I'm struck with how they fit in the context of our larger world. As I record this intro, the world, we know it is in the midst of an upheaval.

One that in my opinion was a long time coming, but one that begs us to ask these questions in a different way. What's the point, what comes next? You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. Listen to this podcast. I challenge you to see it through the lens of not only your personal life, but on the larger scale of our collective culture. Why should you bother? What's the point? What comes next? What's the point and why bother are two questions? I ask myself a lot, especially these days, I guess today Jennifer Louden takes these questions and expands on them in a comprehensive, approachable, beautifully written book called Why bother.

Jennifer Louden is a personal growth pioneer who helped launch the concept of self care with her 1992 bestselling debut book, the woman's comfort book. She's the author of six additional books, including the woman's retreat book, the life organizer, and why. With close to a million copies of her books in print in nine languages.

Her work has been featured in people USA today, CNN and Brené brown books, daring, greatly and dare to lead as an entrepreneur and educator. Jennifer has offered women's retreats for over 25 years and our email newsletter reaches 20,000 subscribers weekly. She lives in Boulder county, Colorado. Jen is another one of my favorite teachers.

She models the idea that we are all in this together and trying to figure it out her book, why bother is incredible as Tara Moore says on the back cover, I'm telling you this book has never been written before, which is saying something in the self-help personal development space on this podcast. Jen and I talk about why she was inspired to write the book.

Why buy. How she realized that holding her mistakes close was holding her back, how our past, especially with our family of origin affects our current lives and getting beyond the idea that all our creative endeavors have to be useful or practical and how that belief keeps us from being creative and trying new things.

I am so excited today to bring you Jen Louden. I am. She's another person. I'm a fan girl of I've been following her for a long time and I'm welcome, Jen. So glad to hear.

Jennifer: I'm so glad that I'm here. And I just want you to know, I flossed the spinach out of my teeth before.

Nancy: That's great. Thank you. So Jen has just written a new book called why bother and on the back of the book is one of another, one of my favorite people.

Tara Moore said, I'm telling you this book has never been written before, which as you know is a huge compliment. So when I saw that, I was like, oh, come on. What did she pay Tara to have her say that? But I tell you people, this book has never been written before after reading it. So it encompasses everything, like it really encompasses the idea of what, of, how you get in your own way, how you engage in self care.

What do you do when you hit a crisis? How you get yourself through, like you could pick it up in a variety areas. In a variety of places in your life and find ways.

Jennifer: Oh, thank you.

Nancy: And you're welcome. So I I just love it. So let's dive in for following you for awhile. You used to talk about getting your scary shit done and and that was a big theme and why bother, really gets at that from a larger perspective.

Jennifer:. We circle around certain ideas in our work and our life, no matter what our medium, no matter what we're doing. And there's an idea in the book that encompasses that I've come to call it signature themes.

And I went to film school many years ago. And know that was something we learned in film school. Like our authors have signature themes and painters have signature things. People do to a signature theme of mine has always been how do I help myself and others make more of what we want, whatever that is.

So Get Your Scary Shit Done was one iteration of that. And some of the same tools that I use there, I built on for this book and this book really at first, it was for a couple particular people. I really believe when you're writing a book, it's very useful to have a particular reader in mind. So I had four people in.

Yeah. One was a woman who had never done anything she wanted. She had lived for everyone else and woke up one day and went, I hate everything about my life. I'm leaving my husband, but I don't know what I want. I don't know what I want. Another person had been really successful and was like, okay, I've done it.

And now. I don't know if I want to do it again because I know what it takes. And and so on. So I had this sort of middle-aged woman in mind, but then once I started talking about the book and sharing some of the ideas before it was published, I had people say, oh, My God. I was talking about the book to my 22 year old grandchild and they wanted, and I was talking to them and my nephew came to this and he's like, why aren't you writing this just for women.

I am in my why bother period. And so then I brought it up more stories and more perspectives because I also realized that I had seen it from the point of view of my life at these really big junctures in life. When you're faced with this question, what's the point and what do I want the point to be?

But he can also come through in little ways, right? It can come through in a day. It can come through in a way you need to change a project or reconnect with your spouse or your partner.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. Cause I think it does come up. Why bother comes up both times, like it doesn't have to be, I'm laying in bed at night, in a crisis being like, oh, what's the point?

It will come when I'm fighting with my husband and, writing a book, launching a podcast, right?

Jennifer: There's so many things like when you get to this place in your job and you're like, okay, What's not working. And I do want to say that we don't all use the words, why bother we use what's the point who cares?

She will never change. This is good enough. I it's too late. I'm too old. We have lots of ways that we language the fact that we believe there's no reason to bother.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. All set. So one thing I loved, I picked a lot of little things to ask you about that were in the book. One thing I loved is there's so much out there about pick your next big thing and live your big, bold, beautiful life.

And I appreciated when you went through the things that. Stay that get in our way. One of them was it doesn't have to be such a grand thing. Like I don't have a grand thing, so it's why bother doing anything. And I loved that because that's one of mine. So of course I'm going to love it. But also I think a lot of my clients struggle with, they just want to have a good life and feel good in it.

They don't necessarily want to be climbing Mount Kilimanjaro or being on Oprah. Any of that stuff. So can you talk about that a little bit?

Jennifer: I mean, talk about a dominant culture story that is in the water and we drink it and, you used the word, just,

I just want a good life!?!? (laughter) I want a life that I lay down at night and I go, oh man, that was a good day. We all know intellectually. We read, lists of them, Kevin Kelly, the journalist and technology guy. Just put out a list of 62 things, and they're all like, it's not, I want to be famous, you want to be, have a good life, basically is his list. So we know this intellectually, but then we go on social media. Or then we watch Beyonce doing Beyonce thing, and then we're like, oh, holy shit. I'm not Beyonce. And it's a real, it's a real act of self love to know what we want and what size we want our life to.

What are you going to do? Yeah. Calm down go sit in the garden.

Nancy: Yes. And five star review because I almost, when I saw you had, cause I checked, before we came on and I was like, oh no, I just, because what if you get a four star, because now you have all these five stars, so the bar has been set.

Jennifer: I've got four stars in good reads.

I got a couple three stars on good reads, so that's okay. Okay. I'm getting used to it.

Nancy: The bubble has popped. Because I do think for me the why bother question popped up for those little things.

Jennifer: Sure. Makes up our life.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. That's true.

Jennifer: And it all goes back to, you said that this book encompasses so many things and it really does encompass self care in that if we're not taking care of our basic needs, then we're going to be even more likely to be hijacked by that story of I'm no good.

If I'm not beyond.

Nancy: Because I feel like, Because that clarify, I just because it's not an encompassed, so many things that I think don't get encompassed like it, instead of starting at step five and jumping forward, if you start at step one on the self care and the questioning and the inner critic and the mistakes and you really get the basic.

And do the depth of the basics that I think a lot of people in the self-help world just skip over because they're not sexy. They're not actually, but man, they are necessary.

Jennifer: So I, I wrote a post once that something about self care is not. Doesn't make you a goddess or something. It was funnier than that.

But I think because self care has become a $2 billion a year industry, it's all about the spa and the $700 scented candle. I hope there isn't one that really costs that much wine of Jayden. All of these things it's all grouped out. And lately my self-care is hormone replacement supernot sexy.

Jennifer: Yeah, getting it, drinking enough water, not eating so much sugar.

Nancy: exactly. And it's all individually. That's the, that's what I appreciated. Is it saying, what do you need for self care?

Jennifer: We've been sheltered. We sheltered in place pretty early. And we have not been going out on the mountain trails that we usually run on the weekends because they're pretty narrow. And at first they were really crowded and were like, oh, it's probably just a good idea to stay away from them.

But yeah, this past weekend we got up early and we went up and it was hard. It was raining. So it was hardly there because in Colorado, if it rains people like, oh, you must stay in doors. And so I felt really safe and who was great. And I've only lived here five years. I missed the green so much. No one else could tell me that self care for me is getting in the green for somebody else would be like, what are you talking about? For some people getting their nails done is self care for me it is torture.

Nancy: that I know is going to chip off and 2.5 seconds (laughter)

Jennifer: in two hours

Nancy: hours. Exactly. Yeah, no, but yes, my mom, she loves it. That's her. Treat to herself. Beautiful.

Jennifer: She looks down at those nails. And all I do is see those chips.

Nancy: Yeah. But she has a relationship with her person and they chat. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Very well. Very well said. Okay. For my, a lot of my work is around inner critic and being kind to yourself and I call the inner critic a monger is it's they spread propaganda and that's what a monger does. I love how you say we hold our mistakes close.

That was, so that phrase was so perfect because that is totally what we do. Can you talk a little more about that?

Jennifer: What we know from the way our brains are built is it seems like it's much more of our default to be hard on ourselves than kind to ourselves. We do have, self-compassion built into our brain structure.

We could call it, but it seems to need much more practice in activation, then the ability to be critical and there's different theories about it, but who knows, we all have experienced that. So the other, so that's part of it. The other part of it is we are afraid not of change. We are not afraid of having what we want.

You do not. I'm going to say you're not afraid of success. I think that's bull. I think what we're afraid of is being undefended. Because our primitive parts, our older parts of our brain and nervous system are like, I will be eaten. I will die consciously. Don't think that. So our mistakes become a way to stay defended and replaying them in this very harsh way is a way to say, look what you shouldn't do.

Don't do that again. You'll stay defended. And of course, then we have what everyone knows about the negativity bias in our brain. So that's also helping reinforce. Look, don't do that. You did, that. You did that. That you did that. We'll do that. And when I look at that, are you sure you saw it right?

Nancy: Let's replay it again, just in case

Jennifer, just in case, say three in the morning. Depending on your power, your post-menopausal stage.

Nancy: Exactly.

Give me a little more to beat yourself up about

Jennifer: we will have to changes sheets because they are soaking wet.

Nancy: Yeah. So I liked that idea of the safety. That we are. Because what, again, the message is, if you can't be kind to yourself, then there's something wrong with you, and instead it's the opposite.

Jennifer: Exactly. So much. I think of studying the brain is helpful for us because it makes us realize, oh, I'm a mammal.

Yes, I'm a mammal. And I'm wired the way all of these other mammals are wired. Plus I have this super sophisticated brain on top of it. And then we can begin to have so much more of a sense of. Oh, that's so adorable that I do that instead of I am oh, screwed up and I have to fix myself. I really think that part of that.

A couple of real disservices, the self-help personal growth coaching world has done to people. And I don't think for any reason on purpose, it's just crept in is that self-improvement is about fixing something that's wrong. Yeah. Instead of I'm doing this thing that bug s me, or I want more of that or what would it be like to grow in that direction?

No, it's such a different feeling in my body than if I could just stop eating so much cheese that I would finally be good enough.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Correct.

Even in my work, I used to spend a lot of time when I first started on helping people figure out what their inner critic looked like, and let's draw a picture and let's really dive into it. And what does it say, blah, blah, blah. And then I finally realized they know that's not the problem, once it's, once they could start recognizing it.

Pulling it apart from who they are,

Jennifer: which is so essential, right? Yeah.

Nancy: Then they got it. They don't need to work anymore on getting to know that voice It would just cause more anxiety and more am I doing it right? What they need help with is figuring out, and I call the voice of self-compassion the biggest fan. Figuring out, what is that voice sound like? And how can I talk to myself in that voice, which is almost always with curiosity.

Jennifer: Yes. And can I trust that voice? That's such a huge part of my experience is the old story myth, belief that a lot of us got from school or parents or whatever that yeah. The only way to succeed is to be hard on yourself. Yes. And thank God we have this huge body of research. Now that doesn't know that actually makes you go more towards numbing and more towards habits that don't make you feel good and away from real challenges and more into the fixed.

Nancy: But when you have it's so hard to let belief go where then you've been indoctrinated in it. I know for me that's. Yeah. And that's the thing I appreciate about your book is that, people would be like, you've written all these books, I'd be kind to yourself and you're like the master at beating yourself up.

Jennifer: Oh, sick of hearing that. And I would, first of all, I was so sick of hearing it. And then I would also be like, you have no idea you're wrong right inside my head, like on the outside, I'd go. Okay. But then I'd be like, I actually know the way to do this. And that's push myself harder on myself and beat myself up more.

I cannot stand the way you talk to her. Wow. Oh oh, fair enough. I'm my God. Okay. I could be really ashamed of this right now, or I could be really compassionate with myself right now and say, wow, you're right. I get it. Yeah. I remember that moment really well. I wanted to hide, I wanted to run a high and say, no, you're wrong.

Nancy: Yeah, but that's an awesome husband.

Jennifer: He's already got a big head. Everybody loves him because of how he comes across in the book. And that made him a monster. (laughter)

Nancy: That's great. You talk about security and action. Are the keys to moving beyond that negative thinking, and I'd never heard it presented in that way, but that's so freaking true.

Jennifer: Hey, I think that's been one of my gifts as a facilitator and teacher, is that ability to make people feel safe and start to internalize that. And then to also realize that it is, there is nothing about this, that you don't know how to do. Actually know how to take the next step and then pause and go.

What do I know now? And take the next step. You've been doing it your whole life, but that big, beautiful brain of yours we were talking about earlier. It's just getting in the way and going, are you sure that's the right next step? Do you remember that mistake you made?

Nancy: Let's go back and take an inventory.

Jennifer: Let's write them all down, watercolor their portraits.

Nancy: So it is just about stopping when you hear that and asking what's the next..

Jennifer: Yes. I think, there's, when, since we're talking about being stuck now, one of the things that I wrote in the book is that the thing that kept me stuck way past the natural point of the grief and loss of those period that I particularly write about in the book, there's more than one period of my life that I read about.

It was being cruel to myself. So I think if the practice that we find, however, we internalize it. However we learn. However, we put it together is that we understand that self cruelty may naturally occur, but we can let it pass on by like the clouds that are gathering and passing by outside the window.

And we can pay attention to the sky. And the sky is our, I think in my understanding is. Essential goodness that we have right. This, and we see it like right now so much during this pandemic, we see people being as we see people being incredibly stupid and awful, but forget about that, we also see people being so kind and, howling at eight o'clock at night in Colorado.

And I'm sure other states, clapping and beating pots and pans and raising money and. Sending cards to people they don't know, and in assisted living. And that is our nature. And we can be friend that and trust it in those moments of. The self cruelty and judgment coming through, like they'll, it'll still come through the weather system, but we can put our attention on that natural impulse to be kind to others and then extend it to ourselves.

Nancy: So it isn't something that you've healed.

Jennifer: Oh, I don't know. I feel like nothing is fixed. I don't even know what anything is anymore. I think the older, And the more I learn or be, or breeds the more I'm like, I have no idea who I am. I have no idea what's up or down. I really feel like I live in more and more of a question of, I don't know anything so it to heal sounds so permanent.

Nancy: No, totally. It was a loaded question.

Jennifer: I feel like, oh, and I said this in the book. Yeah. I don't know anything until I look back and then I go, oh, look at that. Or someone else reflects it to me and I'd go, oh yeah. And I say, and so many business and self-help books, they start with the great, here's the story of my horrible experience.

And here's the story of my triumph. And now I will show you how to do it too. And I write, I wrote in the book, I don't have one of those stories. I don't, I have moments of looking back and going shit. Things are getting better.

Nancy: Cause even the story you tell there's a, that's a pretty impactful.

Yeah. I liked how then you were like, and even after that, I wasn't like shazam I see the world.

Jennifer: And in fact, I didn't remember that story or tell anybody else about it for years. So it wasn't like I rushed home and said to Bob, you'll never believe what happened. And it wasn't like when I was writing the memoir that I wrote before this book that never worked, I didn't write that story in the memoir.

It completely escaped me. Yeah, I think it's interesting because we are mysteries to ourselves. Now we want to pin ourselves down like a butterfly, a dead butterfly with pins at we're not we're, this everything's fine. Tells us we may not need to have a self. We may not have a fixed self. We may we're debating it.

But, so that gives me a sense of just so much. It's just all so funny,

all this whole human thing oh my God, we are all hysterical.

Nancy: But I like I'll say the clients. Spent all my life looking out to figure it out. Like they, they know better. Yes. And once I turned it in, it was like, oh, there's so much here. And I think that's where the curiosity started.

It be like, oh, this is fascinating. There's all this stuff here that I'd been trying to get rid of because they didn't approve of it. Yes.

Jennifer: Beautifully said. That turning towards our own opinion that self-trust not because it's right. Or because someone else's, someone else gives it the stamp of approval, but because we.

It's our experience. This is my experience. Huh? Can I value it? Can I see it because it's mine. Yeah. And maybe I'll take action based on it. Maybe that actual work, maybe it won't, but that's not the validation I'm looking for. I think thing that really can drive me crazy is when people are like, oh, I listened to my intuition and then everything worked out and I'm like, that's great, but that's.

Besides the point is you listen.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, exactly. That's so well said. It doesn't matter if it works.

Jennifer: we think I used to think self-trust meant I listened and it worked out and therefore I

Nancy: was right. Yes. Because we're so about the being, right.

Jennifer: Yeah. And then I would like, if I was fighting with Bob and something, wouldn't go, I wouldn't be able to, he has an incredible memory. He's a scientist and he's just he can just argue until the cows come home and I have a mind that's I don't remember what I said two minutes ago. And I've been like that my whole life.. So I'll be like, oh my God what I'll just lose.

I would lose myself entirely in our moments of something's not right. And it's taken me so long to just turn towards myself and go. I don't know what I said two minutes ago, but I'm experiencing this now. I can trust myself first and then you just share that, but not because it's right and I'm going to win.

Nancy: No. That's. Yes. Yeah. Cause I just, the idea of I'm going to hold on to that one, man, because I still have the, I listened to my intuition

Jennifer: like divine, get it right thing. We don't even know what intuition is. And we think mostly it's probably a ton of experience that you've internalized into your non-conscious awareness, and we

Nancy: AND we don't even know what right is no.

Jennifer: Right

Nancy: yeah. Yeah. Okay. So the other thing that I I loved that you devoted the whole section to your anger matters. Yes. Speaking of, trusting yourself So much of the message of just move forward. Don't look in the past, prevents us from seeing these messages because you share a story from your past and how it influenced your future when it comes to how you deal with anger and obviously being a therapist, I'm a big believer.

But I think that's some about how your past affects your future. But I think that's something that people, you know, that in the self-help industry were like, oh, we're just move forward. We don't look in the past. We're just moving forward. And we miss this stuff.

Jennifer: Yes. And also we're supposed to be positive all the time.

Yes.

Nancy: That makes me so mad. I'm with you. I devoted a whole chapter in my book to that being positive drives me crazy.

Jennifer: I'm not positive right now. Really pissed off. I'm pissed off and now I have to feel that. And then I have to decide if, what, how I want to do something about it. I don't want to ignore it because there's so much political action in that there's so much, when we ignore it, my simple point is when we ignore it over and over again, not only can we not make it sick, but it can be a factor in illness.

It's not anger. Doesn't make us sick by itself. And it's a fact can be a factor in illness. It seems to be from multiple studies. But yeah. Can easily lose why we bother. And I'm not saying we're going to walk around being angry, wake up first thing in the morning. What am I angry about? And that's what I'm going to bother about.

But the story of my mom, my dad telling my mom, she couldn't work, which is the story in the book. I think you're talking about is, was the most angry. I think I ever went. I'm pretty damn sure I was ever at my father who I totally had on a pedestal and. Because I couldn't didn't know what to do with it, because I was definitely raised in a household where women were not supposed to be angry.

Nancy: . Because the idea then was that as you became an adult, then you were empowering women to not be your mom.

Jennifer: Exactly to have grace. .

And to be able to bother about what you want to bother about,

Nancy: but you weren't empowering yourself. You were empowering other women. Yeah. I didn't see the connection

Jennifer:. I didn't see the connection. And somehow making that connection was really important for me going, this is what I do because there's a big thread in the book.

I think. Maybe it's not as clear to other people as it is to me after re writing it and reading it. I read it for the audio book I had to read. The whole damn thing is that I struggled with my work and how to get my bother on so many times in my life, because I wasn't accepting what I would call my Dharma that I wasn't accepting what was mine to do and what I couldn't help, but do I wanted to do something else, something different. So I kept watching it and rejecting it and judging it and not fully committing to it. I don't know whether that's true for anyone else. I'm not saying, I mean that everyone has something that they have to do in life and accept, but it truly was true for me.

Nancy: Because that's what I've loved about following you, prob. 10 12 years is that you're very honest with when you're struggling and what you've learned and how you figured it out. And so a lot of times I would go to your posts to just be like, oh, it's okay. Yeah.

Jennifer: How come we're not? I remember telling my daughter when she just turned 26 the day when everything goes the way you want, that's the day to look for the unicorns and go buy the lottery ticket.

Jennifer: That's really rare.

No, and that's not a bitter statement. That's not a then why bother? Oh, this is life. Life is so messy. And so I went predictable and right before you and I got on the batteries in my keyboard went out, I'm like, oh, wait, a teeny tiny thing, but that's what happens or you're just about to go on a podcast with someone and like suddenly you can't use your keyboard

On the platform, but back to your positive thinking thing, I just had a client reach out and she was, she said, I'm having a bad day. And I've been having such a good such good days. And now I'm having a bad day and I've been trying to talk to you, get in my biggest fan and get myself.

And it's just not working. And so I'm doing it wrong. And so I, I work with my clients via Voxer, so I voxed her back, which is a walkie talkie app type thing. So they can, we talk to each other multiple times in a day. And so I go Vox back to her and I was like, you're not this isn't a monger attack.

You don't, you're not in a bad mood because your inner critic is talking. You're just in a bad mood and you don't need to get out of that. But this isn't a mindset shift. This is just an owning where you are place. And she was like, oh my gosh, I hadn't thought about it like that. So I think anytime we're in a, to your anytime we're struggling or angry or overwhelmed, we're like I got to get out of this as quickly as possible because I'm doing something wrong.

Wow. Instead of no you're being a human, right?

Jennifer: There's a practice. I think it's a little bit in the book, but it's definitely an audio. There's all these extra things that go with the book and there's a URLs throughout the book. This, they go here and I made an audio for this, and this was a profound practice.

I think I learned like seven or eight years ago. So I started meditating at a very young age. And learned a lot of different meditation techniques, but I didn't learn this until my late adulthood. And that is to welcome what we're experiencing to say hi to it, to say this too, or hi, or that wonderful Rumi point poem, the guests.

That to me has been such a profound and really speaks to what your client is going through today. And I, know, I have to welcome what I'm feeling so many times a day, so many times a day, I'll stop to put my hand on my heart and go up. Huh I'm feeling I'm really missing my kids. We haven't seen them in months instead of just rushing past it or papering it over judging.

Nancy: Yeah. We all have our things, our statements of dis dismissing it, missing. And not trusting that it's that if it's a feeling it's there. It's

Jennifer: it’s here. And what my meditation teacher said was what is met can move.

I love that. Yeah.

Jennifer: I have to remember that a lot. What would I say no time for, or too painful or there's nothing I can do about it. Just pull yourself up by your bootstraps at camp. It just gets heavier and heavier

Nancy:. Because that's a funny, my mom she's. Seventies, late seventies.

And she loves the phrase for a long time. She and I would go back and forth because she loves the phrase soldier on, and that's one of her generational, suck it up, soldier on, keep going. And so she and I, after when my dad died, she was like, you say you hate soldier on, but that's what I'm doing.

And I was like, no soldier on means you just go and you don't feel anything. I'm just going to stiff upper lip it. And I said, what you're doing is feeling the sadness and living your life. And that's what we need to do. We need to be grieving, but also living. And we're trying to figure out that balance, right.

Jennifer:

And that balance and in deep grief sometimes. We do whatever we can to get through the day.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. She kept calling me saying, I'm doing what you're telling me to do. I'm doing the emotions thing and I'm still feeling it. And I was like good God, your partner, or 53 years just died.

So yeah.

Jennifer: Got news for you. It’s never going to stop

Nancy: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. But I think that moment shifted for her, this soldier on belief because she wouldn't do anything. But for you.

Jennifer: I think that reminds me of one of the ideas in the book. The self-compassionate grit to think that I would, grit just was grind.

And I just grind myself down to a rubble or self-compassion was quitting. It's oh, that's too hard with myself. I'll give up and take a nap. And then marrying the two to me was so profound. And so it made, it sounds like such an obvious idea now, but it was such like, oh wow. I can keep, I can stay in action.

I can work on the things that are hard. While I'm being kind to myself while I'm being kind to myself.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's on second character in my work is the BFF who is the false self-compassion like the go ahead. I have the third beer. And the BFF, all that, like that's where I would dance all the time. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. So think that's the end of my questions,

but I absolutely loved talking to you and I highly recommend, is there anything else you want to share about the book that you want people to pull from that I didn't give you the chance to shatter? I guess

Jennifer: maybe two things, one that asking why bother in your way that you ask whoever, right now, if you just listen into yourself, what have you been saying lately about like it's too late or I messed that up, so I don't get a second chance or.

He won't change, whatever it is what we're actually, we're not using the curiosity that you referenced earlier. We think we know the answer and that's really the big, first idea in the book. When you're asking why bother you think, the answer. But you really don't, you don't. And until you ask with true curiosity and until you awaken, and here's the second thing, a real freshened relationship with desire itself, not outcome.

Yes. Don't know what you bother about. And mostly what gets us not entirely, but mostly what gets us into this. Why bother periods is that we have turned our back on we're afraid of we have twisted off the flow of desire in our lives, and we won't let ourselves know what we want, enjoy what we want, pay attention to it.

And that's what grinds us down now. Lack of self care and societal and structural things like sexism and racism. And there's lots of other factors I find when we're talking about what we can influence directly. I find that desire is the key.

Nancy: Yeah, because you talk about that with the climate change, right?

How you had gotten into a, why bother. That's a great example.

Jennifer: I still do some days

I'm like really, I still got to keep working on conversation. Can we just think about both of them have to think time. Holy moly. But yeah, so for me, I've been an environmentalist since I was very young. My parents were always like, where did you come from? Not something I, I was raised in a very.

You played golf and tennis kinda lived in the country club kind of house. And my dad would be like your little environmentalist. And then I remember a little bit, little he'd be like, wow, you were right. You were right. But I gave, never gave up. I was still signed petitions and give money and such, but I really was falling into that internal, like it's too late.

It's too late. And yet I would get so pissed off to talk about anger again. When a friend would say, for example, I don't have kids and it's going to be bad after I'm dead. So I'm just going to keep flying around the world everywhere I went. And I was just like, I just want to stab you. So I had to start paying attention to that while I was writing the book and go, oh, this is where I got to get my bother on in some ways.

So I started learning more reading, more listening in on conference calls. Sharing stuff on social media. I had these two beautiful blog posts I heavily researched to share, but then the dynamic happened then oh, I don't think people want to be reading about climate change. I'm going to have to wait and save those for when we have a little bit more bandwidth right now, then in the future, rather, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because one of the places, the why bother where I get, where I say, why bother is anything creative?

Jennifer: Interesting really. Tell me more about that.

Nancy: What are you going to do with it.? Where's it going to go? If I make a, if I make a picture or do some painting, then I throw it away or I hang it up or it's just like, why bother?

Jennifer: Yeah. So that's such a beautiful example of how we can mixed together the desire that arises in you, the desire to create. Maybe can you tell me more? Is it texture? Is it color? What is, tell me more about that desire.

Nancy: It's even, because I guess directly it would be like, even in writing something, like if I'm going to write something, it needs to be publishable on my blog or in a book.

I can't write for the joy of writing.

Jennifer: So that's a place that we can really, you just said it's Why bother? Because we have fused. The desire to create with words let's say, and have fun and be in that flow state and be curious, and maybe be a little itchy scratchy at the end, like where your craft might meet.

Like you have a vision and your craft isn't quite there and hang out there. And that's the desire. And then the culture that we were talking about at the beginning of the interview comes in and says so what the patriarchal culture, by the way, comes in and says why would you waste your time on that?

It's not going to get anything, right? So our desires become a consumer object. That really is it's like someone else is going to consume it. You're not going to consume it, but then they're going to consume something of yours back. And we, and then it's our life force just goes, it's like water in the desert.

Nancy: Yeah, that's so true because then you take that story. You take that away then the next one is you aren't much of a writer. Of course,

Jennifer: Because we don't like to be again, that defended that defendant, that emotional system, we don't like to be in the unknown playing until we have found ways to make ourselves feel defended in playing.

So at first we have to walk into that gap. There's a story in the book about a woman who's been really successful. She was a client. Really successful running her family's business and she was getting ready to, so I'd made a lot of money, had done tons of kudos in her community from her family. It was time to leave and she wanted to start writing and she was like, but I won't be able to do it as well.

As I've done this business, I'm not going to get any accolades or kudos, who knows if I'll ever do anything with it. And she was walking right into that gap. And in that gap is where all the juiciness and desire in life is. So we have to find ways to be safe there and curious to feel defended and curious.

And it's not that difficult. It's just a practice. Like anything else? Just like you've learned to do with the critic with people. Okay. It's a practice it's huh? Okay. So I actually. I don't know how I'm going to do this. What do I know? I know that I really been loving Antonio Machado's poetry.

Okay. That's one thing I know what if I get the book down and pick some words out and set a timer for 15 minutes to play with words, but oh my God, you got to be kidding me. That's going to be so pointless. It's not going to be like his poetry. It's okay, true. True enough. But where's that desire?

Is that worth it to me because I feel it because I am here and I promise you everybody. What I have learned so many times over is when we can practice that. The life force returns to us, desire, returns to us. And then we can begin to say huh. You know what? I think I actually want to learn more about ho a tree.

All right. We're not turning into a big project. That's what we all do.

Nancy: I'm going to write every day for a half an hour, blah, blah, blah.

Jennifer: And instead it's I'm going to get a book. I'm going to get married all over his book about photo. No. I looked down in no, that's too technical. Oh, I'm going to get that book about poetry as medicine and therapy. And I'm just going to play with a little bit, open a page at random and play with it.

And I'm just going to keep attending to that desire. I'll tell you exactly how it shown up in my life. Right now. I got a bunch of collage stuff from my down basement and I have it on the dining room table. And I've been calling. Period. No, one's going to see it. It's not going to get me anything. Wow.

And uploaded on Instagram, I'm not going to be like, oh, Jan, your collages are so cool. I'm just doing it. I have this hour in the day where my husband makes dinner. Bob love him. And he likes me to stay near him while he's making dinner. And I don't drink, which is.

He makes dinner and he has a cocktail and I love drinking, but it just doesn't, it's not something I want to do every day. It's not good for so many things. And it's a more of a weekend thing. And so I've been getting in the habit of having a glass of wine with him or a drink, and I'm like, I don't want to do that.

So what do I do? I'm like what do you desire? I desired art . Oh, would you have same thing? Same everything. You've said everything, but what's it going to get you? And where are you going to do with it? And you're not any good at it. And you're going to get paint all over the dining room table. And so collage go back to collage and just, oh my God, it's making me so happy

Nancy: and not even and I'm good at this is going to be a manifesting, everything I'm collaging.

Jennifer: Oh no I made this collage with a zebra. We got these cards when we were in Patagonia. Of this. Oh yeah. No, it was weird. Weird. I just want to play with color and paper and texture and yeah

Nancy: , I love that because I want to, because I love how you, I'm so glad that you walked us through that example, with the collage and my writing example.

Because it is such a cool of how you attended to the security and

Jennifer: exactly right. Yeah . Yes. So this is not, it's not difficult to do y'all, but it is so essential without this juicy relationship with desire. Unattached to outcome, unattached to the consumer culture, unattached to the patriarchy. We just lose our joy for life.

We lose our ability and we lose our ability and our energy to create the things we do want. Let's say I want my book to sell well that's something I really want. Will I get it or not? I don't know. I can't control that. The desire that I feel when I make a collage or the desire, I feel like to show up for this conversation and be really here with you.

Those will fuel some of the harder actions I have to take, like reaching out to people who don't return my emails. I'm reaching out to media that ignores me, thing. So it does feed the bigger picture, but it's not why we.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. That's an important caveat. Yeah. Because

Jennifer: then that just puts flunks us right back into the, where we started.

Jennifer: Yeah. What you want to do y'all might not be art or creative or anything. It might be, I really want to make a pie. I don't know what I want to go play. I don't even eat pie. I want to make a box.

Nancy: Yeah. By, because I even recently started making bread.

I know it

dammit. I'm not like the whole time doing it. I'm like I just did it on Friday. I had so much fun. And we made two loaves and I'm like, we're not going to be able to eat two loaves. It's just my husband. And I am way making too much bread, like all that. And then I was like, who cares? We're making it's yeast and flour and water who cares.

I was like, but man, did I have you're not science minded and this is supposed to be about precision and you don't have precision, you're followed flighty, all that stuff. But then when I finished, I was like, I had so much fun.

Jennifer: This is beautiful. This is a beautiful example of following your desire and allowing it.

And then the noises there, the fonts are there. They're doing what they're doing, but you kept focusing on the pleasure, the needing the smells. This is a beautiful example, and we just need so much more of this. And when we're in a why bother question in our life or an area of our life, This is the, this is what turns it around.

Nancy: Ah, and we're going to end it on that note because that is perfect. Okay. People, I can't say enough. Good things. I'm right there with Tara Moore. This book has never been written before. Why bother discover the desire for what's next? We'll put a link in the show notes. Thank you, Jen, for showing up and walking us through this process in a really cool,

Jennifer: Hey, total pleasure.

It was so much fun.

Nancy: I loved this interview with Jen. She is someone I've admired from afar. So being able to interview her and pick her brain it was amazing. My biggest takeaway was the idea of how we talk to ourselves out of exploring our creativity or passions, because it isn't practice. Man. Oh man, is this something I do on a daily basis?

I walked away from this interview with new insight, into my own creativity and how I can open myself up to doing activities just because I think they'd be fun. Not because there are practical. Whoa. Isn't that a conscience? Again, this concept can be taken to what is happening in our larger national picture.

We are so afraid of taking imperfect action and doing it wrong. We forget that not taking action and rehashing all the ways we've done it wrong in the past. As Jen would say, holding our mistakes. Just keeps us stuck. We forget that each day we can do it differently. We can take small measured, imperfect action.

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Episode 138: The Catch-22 Of "I Got This"

In today’s episode, I talk about “I got this” a behavior that we engage in when our monger is chatting at us and we’re stressed and anxious.

My Monger is always in my ear, saying: You got this. 

And while, to some, “I got this” might sound like empowered thinking, when it’s coming from my Monger, it certainly is not. 

Instead, it’s a clue that I’m on auto-pilot mode. 

Here’s what I mean:

Recently, after a full day of work, I was making dinner for my husband and doing a load of laundry at the same time. Telling my husband to plate up, I rushed downstairs to “flip a load,” as I call it. 

This is when my Monger started chiming in. “Hurry up!” it said. “You told your husband dinner was ready and now you’re downstairs messing with the laundry!”

And it struck me: I’d worked all day, cooked dinner, and now I was doing laundry—and my Monger was STILL going to shame me for not doing it fast enough?!

Good grief! 

But stories like this are common for me. For years, I lived in that message. I call this the catch-22 of “I got this.”

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• 3 ways to avoid this endless spiral of “I got this” thinking

• Why operating on autopilot is harmful—especially with high functioning anxiety

• How our Monger distorts our perspective

• And how that can affect our relationship with ourselves and with others

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Last week after a full day of work, as I was making dinner, I decided to throw a load of laundry in the washer. I finished dinner and told my husband to dish up his plate. And then I would be right back. I wanted to run down to the basement and put the laundry in the dryer. As I was in the basement, flipping the laundry as I call it, my Monger was chiming in.

“You told your husband dinner was ready and now you're downstairs, messing around with the laundry?!?” and it struck me. Are you kidding me? I worked all day cook dinner, and now I'm doing laundry and you're going to shame me for not doing it fast enough. Good grief.

You're listening to the happier approach the show that pulls back the curtain on the new to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

This story is a common one. Four years. I lived in that message minus the realization at the end of that story, I call this the catch 22 of I got this. All this month we're talking about things that keep you stuck in one of those things. It's the myth our Monger constantly tell us I got this. So let me back up a bit and explain what I mean by I got this. I got, this is a behavior that we engage in when our monger is chatting at us and we're stressed and anxious. The more stressed we get, the more control we seek, and it is like the perfect match.

I want to unpack the laundry example a little bit, because it is such a common example and honestly, feels pretty benign, but can have some nasty side effects. That day had been stressful. I had a lot going on and my brain had been jumping from thing to thing all day long in squirrel like fashion.

So by the end of the day, my Monger was chiming in about everything. I ran down the stairs from my office, like the Tasmanian devil and started cooking. While I was cooking dinner. I'm sure my monger was there, to be honest, I didn't even notice her because even after years of doing this work, she still plays in my head largely unconsciously I'm familiar with my Monger chatting. I'm not saying it's pleasant or comfortable, but it is familiar. And that is something we forget, like any abusive relationship my line of what is normal or acceptable is skewed while someone else who hasn't lived much of their life with a very loud monger would be ah-gassed at what my monger says to me, for me, eh it's just another day at. The office.

So there I am cooking dinner and my Monger is beating me up because I was supposed to do laundry earlier in the day. I actually needed to do laundry the day before and I had officially run out of clean underwear that morning. This is where our monger get even more hard to shake because she had a point.

I was out of underwear. I needed to do laundry. And because I have an abusive relationship with my monger in my mind, I deserved her shame because I had dropped the ball and not done the laundry. And this is where it gets even stickier because I have a husband, a kind caring, super capable husband who could cook dinner or do laundry.

He would be willing to do anything I asked him to do. In fact, he had even offered to do the laundry earlier that day because he knew I was busy and also out of underwear. But did I ask him to help and actually put the laundry in the washing machine? No way I got this. My monger tells me you can't ask for help. That would be weak, or he wouldn't do it right.

So don't bother asking him anyways, I got this, our monger winds us up so much that we become consumed with being in control. As I said, it had been a stressful day, so I was already full of anxiety. One of the challenges of high functioning anxiety is the more anxious you get the more you push yourself.

When I came downstairs from my office and started manically making dinner and thinking about the laundry, I was primed for my Monger to jump all over me. At that point to the idea of taking a break or taking a breather was out of the question. It was perfect. We needed to eat, I need an underwear and I am the only one who can solve all these major problems.

I say that tongue in cheek, because that is what our monger does. She simultaneously punishes us for doing it wrong. Also convincing us we are the only ones who can do it. It's an abusive power trip. I'm an awful person for not being able to do it all. And I'm the only one who could do it. I ran downstairs to switch the laundry.

And my monger starts shaming me and here is where things changed here is where my biggest fan stepped in to say, wait a minute, what is happening here? Why are you shaming yourself when you're doing the laundry for your family? Now, before I go down the road of the biggest fan, I want to share what happens frequently in relationships I'm downstairs.

And my monger starts telling me to hurry up and rather than my biggest fan, who is the voice of kindness and wisdom, my BFF steps in that voice of false self-compassion. And she says where is your husband? And all this, it must be nice that he could just relax on the couch while you run around like a chicken with your head cut off.

So then my BFF gets me all fired up. I head upstairs and I start yelling at my husband about how the power dynamic is off and I do everything and he's too lazy on and on. See what happened there. My Monger was chatting so much. I couldn't take it anymore. So my BFF stepped in to protect me and put the blame on my husband, just in this simple benign example, you can see how the monger and the BFF can run a muck and really wreck havoc in our lives.

But this time, my BFF didn't step in before my biggest fan reminded me that this was a storm of my creating. Interestingly, as this insight was happening to me, my husband came downstairs and I shared it with him and he said, how can you think that I would be mad at you because you were downstairs doing laundry instead of being upstairs with me, that is so hurtful that you think of me as that much of a monster. I stood there, stunned. He was right. My husband is the most laid back kind, forgiving, gentle guy. And my monger can make him out to be a cruel judgmental jerk. I said to him, it has nothing to do with you because when my monger is talking to me and saying, hurry up, you told your husband dinner was ready.

And now you're downstairs messing around with the laundry. My mind is not picturing my husband yelling at me. My mind is picturing some distorted version of my husband yelling. So it isn't about him, which goes to the insidiousness of all this work. It is not a victimless crime. Now I have spread my self hatred onto him and he certainly doesn't deserve it.

In fact, he finds it downright hurtful that I would think of him as a monster. Okay. So how do you avoid this endless spiral of I got this thinking. The very first thing to realize is that I got this thinking creeps up most often when we're running on autopilot, this whole laundry dinner husband situation is a perfect example.

Functioning on autopilot. I had been pushing all day and I'd gone on to autopilot. Autopilot means my Monger is running the show. My to-do list is king and my worthiness is all tied up in my productivity. I let my monger go unchecked. And by the end of the day, she was in full. Control. If we want to stop, I got this thinking in its tracks we need to prevent this autopilot behavior. So here are three ways you can do just that.

Number one, put in regular stop gaps in the day. Taking regular breaks, going for a walk dancing in the office. Generally checking in with yourself and slowing down.

Number two, Acknowledging your feelings. This is important, especially right now, we have a lot going on both on a micro level in our day-to-day lives and on a macro level in the world at large, we are being challenged in our everyday lives, by a pandemic that is largely unknown and on a larger scale, our assumptions and biases around race and privilege are being challenged. We are seeing the world shift right before our eyes. This is anxiety provoking. And because of those of us with high functioning, anxiety are masters at avoiding our feelings.

It is easy to tell ourselves that what is happening in the larger world doesn't affect us or more so shouldn't affect us. It does. I have been reminding all my clients that even if you aren't actively engaging in what is happening in the world, it is still affecting you and your emotions.

Number three, be kind as you can see by the laundry example, these voices are insidious wily and persistent. We have to be kind to ourselves. I will regularly repeat to myself. You don't have all the answers and that's okay to borrow from the movie Frozen II “what's the next right thing to do now?”. So how could I have done that laundry day differently? I could have paused more during the day. I could have taken five minutes to mark the end of my workday and the start of my cooking dinner.

I could have acknowledged that my anxiety was high earlier in the day. And pause to see what was going on. I could have taken my husband up on his offer earlier in the day to start the laundry, I could have reminded myself that I didn't have to rush to move the laundry. I could have eaten dinner and then moved it.

Those are just a few ways I could have done it differently. Regular breaks, acknowledging feelings, and being kind notice your tendency to take over control to say to yourself, I got this. Our monger is insidious and it is challenging, but she doesn't have to win.

---

Episode 137: Redefining Self-Care and Reclaiming Sovereignty

In today’s episode, I am talking with Mara Glatzel, MSW, an intuitive coach, writer, and podcast host about self-care and owning our needs.

Which of these examples looks like a day of self-care for you?

A hike through the woods with your nearest and dearest and a picnic lunch.

A rambunctious night of games, drinks, and pizza with friends.

Sleeping in and having coffee in bed, followed by a granola bowl on the back deck.

A chance to read your new fiction book, some yard work, and a barbeque on the grill. 

Canceling plans to go canoeing because you just don’t feel good and need to rest.

Staying in bed all day, watching movies. 

We have a set definition of what self-care should look like. But the reality is that any and all of the above ideas can be self-care! 

For those of us with High Functioning Anxiety, we struggle with self-care. I mean, soul-nourishing, true downtime, really-giving-back-to-ourselves kind of self-care. 

And yet our lack of self-care keeps us stuck in over-functioning and a lack of self-loyalty. 

Sound familiar?

That’s why this month we’re talking about what keeps you stuck and how self-care (and lack thereof!) is one of those things. 

My guest today is Mara Glatzel, MSW, an intuitive coach, writer, and podcast host who helps perfectionists and people pleasers reclaim their sovereignty. She’s a queer, femme wife and mother of two, recovering control freak, and a human who deeply understands the impulse to relegate her needs to the bottom of a very long to-do list in an attempt to prove her worth. 

Mara also teaches everything she knows about identifying, honoring, and advocating for your needs in her 9-month online program, Tend. You can access her free training Revive: Self-Care That Works, hang with her on Instagram, or tune in to her weekly podcast, Needy.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• 3 ways to avoid this endless spiral of “I got this” thinking

• Why operating on autopilot is harmful—especially with high functioning anxiety

• How our Monger distorts our perspective

• And how that can affect our relationship with ourselves and with others

Resources mentioned:

• MaraGlatzel.com

• Revive: Self-Care That Works

• Needy Podcast

• Tend 9-month online program

• Instagram: @maraglatzel

• Facebook: Mara Glatzel

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Mara: That becoming your own sovereign leader of your own life means really turning towards yourself for confirmation, for information, for validation, for approval, and being the owner of your own. This,

Nancy: I have a question for you. Which of these examples is a day of self-care for you. Number one, a hike through the woods with your nearest and dearest and a picnic lunch followed by a rambunctious night of games, drinks, and pizza with friends.

Number two, sleeping in and having coffee in bed, followed by a granola bowl on the back deck and a chance to read your new fiction book, some work in the yard and a barbecue on the grill or number three, canceling plans to go canoeing because you just don't feel good and you need to rest. Staying in bed all day and watching movies, the correct answer is any and all of them can be self-care.

We have set a definition of what self care should look like the right way we talked about last week.

Your listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

What is self-care? According to my guest, Mara Glatzel self care is deep daily tending. I just love that!Oour theme for June is things that keep you stuck and self-care, or our lack of self-care is one of the things that keeps us stuck. Those of us with high functioning anxiety struggle with engaging in self-care?

Soul nourishing, true downtime, really giving back to ourselves self-care. Our lack of self-care keeps us stuck in overfunctioning and a lack of self loyalty. As Mara says, we have a hard time tending to ourselves. Mara Glatzel has a master's in social work. She's an intuitive coach writer and a podcast host of the podcast Needy, and she helps perfectionist and people-pleasers reclaim their sovereignty.

She's also a queer femme wife and mother of two, recovering control freak, and a human who deeply understands the impulse to relegate her needs to the bottom of a way long to do list in an attempt to prove her worth. Her superpower is saying what you need to hear when you need to hear it. And she is here to help you believe in yourself as much as she believes in you.

Mara has been one of my teachers for years. Her work takes a simple concept, self care and dives deep into it. Her Instagram feed regularly reminds me to pause and check in with myself. And she totally walks the talk. So I was thrilled when she agreed to share her wisdom on my podcast, Mara and I talk about her tagline, redefining self-care and reclaiming sovereignty, and what that means to her, how to prioritize yourself when you have overly prioritized others, how self-accountability is an act of self-love and why needs is such a bad word in our society and how she is reclaiming needs as a good thing.

I am so excited today to have Mara Glatzel on the podcast. I have followed Mara for a long time and just love her work. And I think you're going to love it too. So I'm just going to dive right in if that's cool. Your tagline is redefining self-care and reclaiming sovereignty.

What does that mean to you?

Mara: I've been working as a coach for a long time and about four or five years ago. I really pivoted my work towards helping people care for themselves, which of course is about the care. It's about meeting your needs on a daily basis. And it's also about healing the work in your relationship with yourself to know that you are deserving of having your needs met.

Much, it means that you're worthy and that you matter, and that you deserve a space in your own life, not only a space in your own life, but a space at the center of your life. And what I found was that a lot of conventional traditional self care advice was very prescriptive and really it's you would see this listicle of like here's 10 ways to take better care of yourself today.

And those things never really got to what I find most humans actually need in terms of support on a daily basis. And so by redefining your care, repurposing the idea of what it means to care for yourself so that it's not this prescriptive list of things that you check off, but instead the daily action.

It becomes the daily actions of being in relationship with yourself. So your care is responsive to whatever it is that you have going on. So whether that's, calling your insurance company to figure out something about your deductible or pouring yourself a glass of water, or, that calling up and talking to your kid's teacher, it's whatever the, your life requires that becomes the care.

That for so many of us we don't understand ourselves to be the sovereign leaders of our own lives. So instead of, looking outward for approval permission somebody else to say, you've done enough. Why don't you sit down and rest? Which of course never happens. We're all waiting for it.

Becoming your own sovereign leader of your own life means really turning towards yourself for confirmation, for information, for validation, for approval and being the owner of your own enough of this. And, it's amazing because in some ways these shifts can be slight, it's like a subtle reorientation.

And in other ways, it's this profound learning because of course we're conditioned to put other people before us to not want to be selfish to that we need to do all of these different things in order to be lovable in order to be worthy. And the shifts in our actions might be small, but the emotional underpinning can be enormous.

So I cover both in my work. I'd like to be both really tangible and also, deal with the messiness of being.

Nancy: Yeah, because, what's what I think I love about your work is that self-care is something, everyone fricking talks about self-care, but in the, and it's like a, one-off like, self-care like, make sure you do self-care, but you've devoted much of your, message to that depth of what self care means. So it's not just this, one-off make sure you take care of yourself thing. You call it daily tending and that idea that this is deeper than just taking a bubble bath, that sometimes it is, it's really showing up for yourself. And I think we give that a lot of lip service, but you really illustrate what that means and what that brings up.

Mara: Thank you. I try to, yeah. I think it's so funny because I'll all the time, we'll have, people are like, Mara, I'm a big problem. I need a big fix. I'm like, but are you drinking water? They're like, no, but I need your big guns. I'm like, what are you drinking water every day? And it's I say that sort of jokingly, but they are not drinking water.

Like we are not drinking water. And while I do think that a lot of us have. Tons of healing to do and tons of personal work to do. All of that requires energy. So if you don't have any energy, you're not going to have the energy to do that personal growth work. And we're continually beating ourselves up for not having the capacity to be introspective well, okay.

We need to work on the actual mechanics of. Of tending to our own capacity, to even have the energy, to have the conversation with ourselves about our bigger hopes and dreams, for example. And I find that people by and large beat themselves up for not having that capacity, but aren't doing the work to give themselves that capacity to begin with.

So it becomes this like tricky feedback loop. And so getting way back to the basics of things that. We already know we need, everybody knows you need it, but I'm really curious about, okay if you need it, why aren't you doing it? And

Nancy: What have you found for that?

Because that's across the board, a problem.

Mara: I've found that a lot of people that I work with are people who assumed a lot of responsibility when they were children. And so they have this feeling. Like I'm tired of taking care of myself. I'm tired of being responsible for everything.

And they tend to be people who are overly responsible for other people's stuff. And this idea of oh, like taking care of myself as one more thing that I have to put on the, the bottom of a very long list and, and met with the fact that we're a culture that is indoctrinated with this diet mentality concept of I need a big fancy splashy, thing we're going to here's my 10 point plan for reinventing myself this spring and daily tending.

So not sexy compared to that, it's boring. It's I'm going to drink my water again. I'm going to drink my water again. I'm going to drink my water again. But what I find is that what we're actually craving isn't that one-off self care, but actually the consistency of mattering to somebody on a daily basis.

And, you can matter to yourself. You can take care of yourself and this doesn't mean that we're islands, I think community care is also really important and relational care is really important, what we're actually aching for is that consistency, it's like we go back to.

I have small children, what they need is knowing, like they're going to get breakfast, lunch, and dinner. I'm going to put them to bed at the same time every day. I'm going to like, keep an eye on whether they're drinking enough water or they're super dehydrated. Did they take their vitamins?

We are, we still need that kind of care, even when we're adults. And that tending to our most basic daily needs provides this internal scaffolding energetically for us to be available, to do all of the things that we want to do. So if we put it at the end of the list, We're burning ourselves out without doing anything, to restore our energy.

And so I like to think about it as, front-loading our own care, which is really tending to our capacity to show up for. Whether I'm working in my business, I'm parenting, I'm gardening, I'm coaching, whatever I'm doing, it requires energy. And if I'm not tending to my energetic capacity, I have nothing left to give.

Nancy: That's what the other thing is the idea of so many times when we hear about self care, it's that idea of. I know the false self-compassion of go ahead. Do whatever you want. Sit in front of the TV, do nothing. But with the idea of daily tending, you're saying there's sometimes there's stuff you don't want to do, like call.

The credit card company or whatever and paying bills and that stuff is also tending

Mara: . Yeah. So it's a slippery slope. Self-love is really tricky because I think that we are, we're fed these kinds of like romcom ideas of self-love oh, like have the cupcakes, do whatever. And like I'm pro cupcakes, but.

I think this idea of love equals letting go of all of the boundaries, all of the things that you need isn't useful actually. And so I like to think about how accountability is love too and how we can be accountable to ourselves. And what's tricky about this for me and I know for other people as well is that we're not taught how to motivate ourselves through, with compassion, through our natural enthusiasm. I was taught I was raised to beat myself up to get from here to there because that's, and I assumed that's what everybody does. It's I just absorbed that from society. I don't, I can't remember anybody modeling that for me directly, but that was like what people do it sucks and you do it.

And. It took until I was in my thirties really, before I started to realize oh wow, I can be nice to myself and get something done, enjoy the process. I can speak to myself kindly. And when I think about that, self-love what that looks like for me now is when I make promises to myself, I'm going to try to move my body every day, or I'm going to try to drink enough water or, I'm going to try to get outside, get some sunshine, which is really important to me right now. And I'm not doing that. That's a time to get curious and have a conversation with myself. That sounds something like, Hey Mara, how'd you do this thing noticed you're not doing it.

Like what's going on. Do you need a different time of day? Do you need support? Are there tools that you require that you don't have, is there a creative approach that we can take to it? For me that self-love is not letting myself off the hook to what I know that I need while also having those conversations in a way that the like tone of my inner landscape is kind and compassionate.

It's assuming that I'm doing the best that I can. And not that I'm like. Some like spec on the ground that needs to be like, prodded from here to there with a lot of cruelty, which is totally how I used to relate to myself. And I find that contrary to popular belief, I actually get so much more done now, which is amazing, oh if I don't, if I'm not mean to myself, I'm going to wake up three months down the line, watching daytime TV, having not done anything and covered in Dorito dust or something like that. But actually it turns out I really like to be spoken to nice.

Okay. Yeah, we can do that thing. Okay. This person who's like running the show cares about me and so when I talk about reclaiming sovereignty too, that's what I'm talking about. It's like reclaiming the tone of what's happening, the quality of conversation in your inner landscape or your self-talk and being a benevolent leader.

Nancy: I love that a benevolent leader. That's amazing. Yeah, because that's a big a big part of my work is working with the title of my book is be kind to yourself, feel happier and still accomplish your goals. So that, because if that was a huge aha for me, when I realized, oh, wait, I don't need the shaming monger voice in my head all the time.

I could actually, and that idea that I get more done, when I. Even like stupid stuff like laundry, if I'm like, I'm not feeling it today. There will be a day in the next 24, there will be a time in the next 24 hours when I'm feeling it because I need laundry or because of oh, go down and do the laundry right now.

And when I forced myself to do it, it's not the same, the energetically it's so different, but it does get done. Yeah. When I release the control a little bit.

Mara: Totally. And also by whatever means necessary, I ask myself too, it's like, all right, you don't want to do the laundry.

That's fine. It's totally boring. You do it. I have two kids, so I do a lot of laundry so much. And I'm like what could I do to make it. Am I going to fold the laundry while watching Veronica Mars? Sure. Why not going to listen to my favorite podcast? It's what can I do?

I think that's the other thing that's amazing to me is that we were so strict with ourselves. It's like doing a good job, means this like Spartan experience where we're like buckling down and I'm like, could you put on some fun music, you have a snack, like good. You make this experience enjoyable.

Like you can do that. And it seems. Silly, but it changes the entire landscape of your experience of whatever you're doing. I hate doing dishes. I really do cleaning up. My kitchen is like my top tier least favorite chore. But I have to do it. That's just the reality of life.

And so then I think about how can I make this sustainable? How can I make this enjoyable? You know what's within my power to. Curate this experience. So that it's well-suited for me personally.

Nancy: Yeah. That's yeah. I love that. That's well said. So you're so the idea, because what it is that you going back, you said the internal scaffolding that this, tending to yourself, builds internal scaffolding.

So then you can move forward and do the other work. The big guns. And I think that is something that we miss when we're just like, oh yeah, self care. We miss that we're really, this will pay off later. I just wrote down internal scaffolding with a big circle around it, in my notes.

Okay. So this morning as I was walking the dog in the pouring down rain, even though I checked the radar and I thought it was going to not be raining I was listening to your podcast, which is called needy. I just remember being so jealous of that title because it's so perfect.

You say Needy is a podcast for humans with needs, particularly those who pretend they don't have them amen to that. I can't relate to that at all. Ha why do you think we, and this is a loaded question, but why do you think we, particularly as women pretend we don't have needs?

Mara: I think because we think people like us better.

And the reality might be that people like us better when we don't. I don't think that's I don't think we pluck that idea out of thin air. Going back to that rom com idea. It's I think, we very early on make the association that certain kinds of people are worthy of love and being needy. Like I love the, I also love the title of my project. Needy is such a compelling word for me because. On so many personal fronts, it's like that idea and don't be needy, and really what I'm saying is don't take up too much space. Don't make it too difficult for somebody to be in relationship with you, which you like if you dig just below the surface, there's this belief that I need to apologize for myself. Somehow I need to make up for myself in some way, by being convenient, by being palatable, by being easy to be in relationship with. And, there is so much hurt right under that surface of, just feeling like you're too much just feeling nobody has the time or the energy to really deal with you.

And. I remember feeling like I, if there was just like one person in the world that I wasn't too much for, that would be amazing. Yeah. So this, my work was really born out of this idea of, we still need other people. We still want to be in a relationship with other people, but what if I became that one person that I wasn't too much for?

And it's hard because sometimes you're like, I think about I was like picking people for Dodge ball or something in elementary school. It's I don't want to pick myself first sometimes, it's I like, I want to pick myself last. So you are just like a total handful.

And I really am a total handful. But that's it, right? Byron Katie says, you're going to argue with what is you're going to lose, but only every time, what is true about me is that I think too much, I feel too much. I need too much by any margin of like appropriate society standards.

And I have been that. Since I was born. So being in relationship with myself means really expanding to accommodate everything that I am instead of constantly shaming myself for not fitting this like cookie cutter. This is what's good, and it's hard because I grew up. In a larger body. I, was told in no uncertain terms directly to my face from like elementary school that I should be lucky, right for any attention that people paid to me. We don't pluck these ideas out of nowhere. We are taught that we are not as worthy as somebody else. We are taught to make ourselves small, and we carry that into adulthood, into our relationships. And we have this real fear.

If I start bringing more of my true self to my life, who's going to be there. Are people still going to be around? And what I found is some people aren't and that, the fear of that, the riskiness of that, the worry of what happens when I allow my needs to enter into the situation and ask for what I really want.

And somebody says, no, thank you. And what I suspected was true, but like really hard to hold onto when I was that afraid was that on the other side, there might be more people who were excited and happy for, like being with me and my truest form. But I have so much compassion for how it can feel scary.

And we are really committed to pretending that we don't have needs because we need to belong. And, that need for belonging is so overdeveloped, because if you think about when you're a baby, your need for safety and your need for belonging are so intricately woven together that, you have to do whatever you deem necessary in order to belong to your family of origin, because your actual survival depends on it.

And then as you grow into adulthood, that's in most cases no longer true, but it still feels so true if you will so risky and so dangerous. So we have to be kind to ourselves. And so much of being that benevolent leader to ourselves is really learning how to belong to ourselves first.

And knowing that the relationship that we have with ourselves supersedes the relationships that we have with everyone else, because that's the one that we carry from when we're born, until we die and, through all of the relationships. In our lives and it can feel lonely. It's I remember one time.

Ah why did I have to stuck with myself? Why couldn't I be somebody cool or less difficult, or I don't know, ah everyone has it so much easier or nobody really has it that much easier. We all have stuff. And so basically it's don't pick yourself last, be that person that you're not too much for.

But that's not something you can pay lip service to. That's something that you. That you show to yourself, you prove to yourself every single day through your actions.

Nancy: And so in the podcast episode I was listening to, which was your story you talk to, there are two things you talked about that were that I was like, like I literally stopped and typed into my phone.

Oh, I need to ask more about this. The one that stopped me in my tracks was Self care is inconvenient or not self-care but self-trust means being inconvenient. And I was like, whoa, that is so true. So dead on. And yet God, that's so freaking hard, like that's a piece. I think that where we give lip service to self-trust and we need to pick ourselves first, blah, blah, blah.

But when we're in the trenches, Being inconvenient. And, you give the example of like being the one that says, no, I can't eat that or no, I need to take a break. And, I have chronic arthritis and I think that's why that stuck out to me. Because I'm inconvenient a lot.

And that is so hard for me. So talk, can you talk to that a little bit and just,

Mara: yeah. Having your own back and. Having your own back is an act of rebuilding that self-trust so much of being our true selves is inconvenient because we know on every level that the world would prefer us.

If we were like the cool person, like I always think oh, if I was like, what would a cool girl say? Oh, it's no problem. When really I'm like, it's a big problem. I just want to feel okay., I just want to not care so much about everything or not, it's like I have a lot of foods that I'm allergic to. And it's never easy. It's never just yeah, sure. Bake whatever, no problem. We are so taught to not inconvenience other people that like being good means making ourselves as small and easy as possible.

And anything that's not Yeah, sure. No problem is a problem. And yet we are, we're humans are inherently problematic because, we get tired, we have health limitations. We have. Preferences and needs, there's so many things about us that don't fit into that, that cookie cutter mold. The societal indoctrination and conditioning is heavy.

And, I think in this case, particularly around productivity, you know what we're seeing now, especially as we're recording this during this pandemic that people are. Scared for their lives and they're still shaming themselves for not being productive, so we just were able to see or risking their lives to go back to work because they need the money.

We see how productivity is king and anything that, that any human part of us automatically makes us less productive because we're not machines, we're not robots, we're humans. And that means we get tired. We, have to get up and go to the bathroom. We have get hungry, like we, we require things in order to keep going.

And in a world that would prefer us to push all that to the wayside in order to just keep showing up in this like excellent kind of way. It's problematic. And whenever we really prioritize those parts of ourselves, that's a revolutionary act. And I think, building up that paradigm shift of it's okay for me to be a human it's. Okay. For me to have needs and preferences and requirements for, continuation the more people that we can have around us that feel the same way. It's like this podcast is amazing, right? This is a great resource. But surrounding yourself, quite literally with voices that reaffirm your worthiness as a human being.

Nancy: Because I like how you say, because it's needs and preferences. It isn't, I know that I, have some stomach issues and I would been in my twenties, I would go and eat out with people that were making meals. I wouldn't tell them what would make me sick. I would just get sick, I would eat it later and then get sick because I didn't want to stand out as having a need.

And that's something that now I would, that is a. It's a medical problem. I'm going to be, I'm going to be more strict about it, but even just preferring not to have pizza, just because it's a preference. Not because anything's going to happen to me. I think that's where, we don't even do that.

If I have a medical condition, then it's okay to say I have a preference, but if I just prefer it because I like pizza or I don't like pizza, it's a whole big thing and our brains, but it's the same thing, but it's justifying

Mara: Yeah. It's so funny. My clients are always like, wait, but is it a need or is it a desire?

Yeah. I see what you're doing here. I see. It's okay, now we've decided that needs are okay, but only needs not a step further are important. And the reality is, it's like somebody is cooking you dinner. They that's an act of love for you, right? Hey, random person let me do this loving thing for you.

It's they want to make you something. They don't want to make you something that makes you sick, they don't want to make you something that you don't like, or we'll see. It's oh, we're going out somewhere. Where do you want to go? I don't know. Where do you want to go? How about Tai in my head?

I'm like, not tai, not do I say not tai? No. And so I think, yeah. It's really important. If we're going to build genuine relationships with other people that we allow our needs and preferences into the conversation, the same way that we would want to know somebody else's needs and preferences, I think about how much allowance and permission, for all of the people in my life to be spectacularly human. And I'm like what do you need? I want to make this extra special, good feeling for you, but why wouldn't I let somebody give that to me in return? Why wouldn't I trust that maybe somebody who, says they want to do that actually means it.

And all of that goes back to believing that we're worthy of that kind of care. And we can't outsource.It's never going to be enough. We could see, receive so much evidence, so much permission, so much, affirmation, which like, we're not going to receive that much anyway, because as much as we need, because like it's not anybody else's full-time job to make us feel good about ourselves, much as I wish it were, so it's it's no, it's never going to be enough. And we have to be the sovereign leaders of our lives and really. Do that internal work to see oh wow, this person's making me dinner. I'm going to assume that it's not because they feel like arm twisted into it. It's because they actually want to.

And so I'm also going to assume that it's safe to say I can't eat dairy. If the shoe were on the other foot, I wouldn't, want to honor that preference for somebody else. Absolutely.

Nancy: Yeah. Because even as you said, please don't make it Tai. My brain was like, oh, but you should try new things and you should be open to, like it was almost immediate.

Mara: We have to be very vigilant. I don’t want to say vigilant because I don't want anybody to be stressed out, but we have to be aware that we're, our social conditioning is such that we're really tricky. This is a very nuanced, the immediacy of how we censor ourselves is really profound.

So starting to walk that back, Oh, wow. And we don't have to beat ourselves up for it. It's oh, wow. See what I just did there. I told myself pretty immediately that what I wanted and needed was impossible here. Is that actually true? It doesn't feel risky. Is there something I could ask for, because we don't have to splay ourselves open at every point.

We can push our edges a little bit and say, how about not Tai today?

Nancy: Yeah, it just is. It's funny how it comes so quick, so then this is a question on your podcast. You talked about self-trust you said self-trust can sometimes disguise itself as following rules. So for those of us that are rule followers, we think we're engaging in self-trust, but we're not.

So I know I'm springing this question on you, but what does that mean? Because I'm a big rule follower and I know a lot of that's something I work on daily is the rules loosening that.

Mara: So it's I like to think about this as, whose rules are we following? I'm a big rule follower too.

And I will say that I am being impeccable with my word is something that is really important to me. Follow through is really important to me. And once I say I'm going to do something, it's put it on my tombstone. I will be there at the appointed time. No matter what, because I just that's how my brain operates and I like steps and I like, clear like paths from here to there.

But what is interesting is how. Unless I'm paying attention. My life is filled up with rules written by somebody else and for somebody else. And, I noticed this in a big way maybe in 2012 because I, I had my whole life was set up and it looked really good. And I had followed a path that I accumulated at some point from the what was good manual. And I hadn't, I never stopped and say is this what I do? Is this what I think is right? Is this what I think is good? And so I think that there's a piece of self-trust that has to do with being in relationship with ourselves and being in a state of inquiry and, following through with what we say that we're going to do but making sure that what we say we're going to do is something that.

Actually works for us. That's in alignment with our own values system. That's in integrity for us. And that's the piece that I was, had been skipping over. I had just been like, oh it says this is good, or right. I was. Constantly polling for opinions from other people and, pulling experts in for somebody better, smarter than me who would know what to do.

And when I was able to realize like there, by and large, almost across the board, there is no universally right or wrong answer. There's just the answer that works for you and make sense to you. And that we're doing the best that we can with the tools that. In the minute, which means looking back on ourselves is always going to disappoint, embarrass us in some ways, because we're always getting better.

So you know that there was no thing I could do that would be like capital G good. That everybody would agree on. And that was a profound disappointment for me because I was vested in being good. And I was really invested in knowing what that was, and so there was a lot of grief associated with giving that up because I don't want to just be right.

I don't want to pick myself for Dodge ball. I don't want to just be me out in the middle of nowhere. I feel so small. I feel so insignificant. I feel like I don't possibly have the tools to make any kind of decision, but, it's really interesting. And there are so many opportunities to rebuild our self-trust in this way, I'm thinking.

During this time, before my governor I live in Massachusetts, before my governor pulled my kids out of school and, shut everything down, like we had already shut down. And that was because in my family, because I was tired of spending my whole day scrolling through finding opinions, trying to figure it out, all these things, feeling scared, wanting somebody to tell me what to do.

And I made the decision like, oh, wow. Okay. I actually have self-trust and I have agency and I can make decisions on my own behalf. And, my partner and I work for ourselves. So we were able to do this, but like we just, we pulled our kids out of school. We were like, we just need to stop and make the decision that we were going to stay here for the next two weeks and see what happens.

And I think we have so many opportunities. Obviously we live in societies. There are certain rules that guide those societies, but there's a lot of room, maneuverability for choice and preference within that. We just have to feel strong enough to do that for ourselves and strong enough. Does it mean, like I still feel small and insignificant and like spectacularly unprepared to make decisions on my own, but that's not, I don't assume that's ever going to change.

And that doesn't mean that I can't trust myself. That's just me. Yeah. It's scary. Who are you to think? I need to be, I feel like that about being a parent across the board. It's am I adult enough to be in charge of these people… I don't think so. I can barely take care of myself but here we are doing the best we can with what we have.

Nancy: Yeah, because I noticed on the opposite when our governor announced he was going to open up. My anxiety went through the roof. Because I was like, oh my, no. Oh my God, we're going to open up. Oh my God. I don't feel, I don't think this is right. And then. You can do what you want to do. Like you don't have to rejoin.

And that was new for me to just switch that. Because that's something on a daily basis, like I'll have a rule about, the right thing to eat for breakfast or the rule for, the right time to eat lunch. Like everything in my life is a rule or a competition. It's all about, doing it.

Is something that I actively work on readjusting. Okay. So then the other question I have is your blog. And I realize it's an old one. But it's still tops on your blog page. And it's one of those blogs that I wish I had written myself: Is Accepting Myself Avoiding Self-Improvement. is the title of it. And I have so many people, a lot of my listeners, they're here because they love self-improvement. And that mix of I can't accept myself because there's still so much, I want to improve on talk to me about that.

Mara: Yeah. That goes back to these weird ideas about self love that we have.

It's if I accept myself as I am, that I'm somehow just like putting a cap on any future growth and I don't want to stagnate. So I better, like be, always fixing, always improving and self-acceptance really says that there may be a lot of things that you want and need to take care of in your life, but that there's nothing wrong with you.

And that there's nothing to fix about you. And, it goes back to some of what I said about that Byron Katie quote about, If you want to argue with what is you're going to lose, but only every time. And I am that too much person that like total handful person that I was when I was three years old.

And when I was 11 years old and when I was 20 years old and now currently I am never going to out life hack or grow myself. I've done tons of work on myself over my lifetime. But I'm never going to not be myself. And so I think that the self-acceptance piece is really about honoring and working with your original factory settings.

Like I have things that are always going to trigger me. I have things that are always going to be harder for me than other things. I have things on the other side that I'm great at. Like these are the things that are true about me and those things may change like on a spectrum, like we're all moving all the time.

Like my capacity is impacted by my care of myself. It's not like things are static. But I'm never going to not be me. And so for me, that self-acceptance is really about honoring who I am and working from that place. It's like thinking, no matter how much I work out, like my legs are never going to be longer than they are.

I have short legs that is true about me. And I could like work to change the shape of my legs, but they're never going to. Longer. They're always going to be short legs. And what am I going to spend my whole life pissed that I have these short legs, and that's what it is for me.

It's we're going to spend our whole lives at odds with our factory settings. One could do that if one wanted to, but it's a miserable way to live because you're always at odds with yourself. And so instead, it might be thinking about like, all right this is, this is the body that I have.

This is the life that I have. This is, these are what I'm working with. And daily tending is more about supporting ourselves. If I know that something is challenging for me, then I have to think about how to make it work for me. So I've been writing a book for an embarrassing long time, and I write.

Like thousands and thousands of words a week, four tons. For coaching programs, for emails for all, I'm writing constantly. Writing a book is really hard for me, pushes a lot of buttons. I have this opportunity to either beat myself up or be in a place of self-acceptance like, Hey, this is hard for you.

So if this is something you actually want to do, you need to find a way to make it work for you. Self-acceptance, isn't this cap on your growth, but it's this acknowledgement that you are, who you are. And if you want what you want, it's got to go through you. Instead of pushing you to the side and being like here's the rules.

This is like the five-step plan. And you say okay, it turns out what I need to write my book is for my little sister to literally sit next to me for several hours a week and holds me accountable to myself. Pour me hot chocolate and like telling me I'm such a good writer. That's what it is, will the book get written?

Yes, there's we don't have to, it goes back to being so strict with ourselves. Like we don't have to do things in this, nobody says like you have to write a book by yourself in a room and it's like very Spartan way with no music, just you and your muse.

Like self-acceptance implores us to work with what we have to get to where we want to go. And not only from my perspective, not only does that put a cap on our self-improvement or, our growth, but it superpowers it. And it's just so funny to me although people say it to me all the time, too, I don't want to accept myself because then I'll just relax into it.

Yes. What a way to be in relationship with yourself. You want to be able to relax into your relationship with yourself. That goes to show you're having all your relationships like that. I don't want to relax into it because something bad might happen. That person might divorce me, die, walk out the door, you're not going to have any of those problems in your relationship with yourself. You're really stuck with yourself. What is that, that deep seated message of unworthiness there that we don't deserve to be loved and cared for and taken care of the way that we are. We always have to be striving to, to deserve that.

And I get why people feel that way. But it's a brutal way to run your life, a benevolent leader would not do that would not believe that.

And it's a process, right? Working to walk that one back and you can start by, by even saying it's okay, there's, let's just say, there's no rules about breakfast just for today. What would I want to eat? Do I want you to Turkey sandwich? Do I want to run some of those? Those choices off of autopilot and really asking yourself, what would I like to eat right now at this meal that we call breakfast, which is, we have an idea in our head of what that should look like, but that's totally arbitrary.

Nancy: Yeah. That, yeah. And that again, goes to the depth of self care and self trust. That is where everything starts from that. If then I can make decisions because my first tendency is to be, oh, I want to write a book. Let me go look outside for all the rules on how to write a book instead of how would writing a book, how do I want to write a book?

What does that look like for me? I immediately go to look for it.

Mara: Yeah. Oh, me too. The other day I was talking to my sister about it because I was writing and I was like, all of a sudden I was like, this needs like a theoretical underpinning and I felt totally intimidated. But then in the middle of the night I remembered I have my master's in social work.

Like I know how to have a theoretical underpinnings. And then she was like cracking up. She was like, yeah. I be like, yeah, you do have the ability. All right. That you already know the theories that you're already working from and your work. And then I came all the way around to it again, and I was like, yeah.

And I can include that, but also I don't have to base my work on somebody else's work. I can just do my own work. She was happy to be on this process with me. But now it's really like that whole art yeah. Giving ourselves that permission and it, it is so funny. Because there are rules. Look, if you want to look outside of yourself, there's always going to be somebody who's going to tell you.

There's always going to be somebody lined up that you can pay to tell you. And I think that getting support is excellent. But we need to run everything through our own filtration system too, it's okay. Mara said that. Is that true for me? Maybe not. Does that work for me?

Maybe not. Maybe I really need to have eat the same thing for breakfast every single day, because that's what helps me, my decision-making process. Doesn't zap me of my decision-making abilities for the rest of the day. It's like I eat berries and cereal for breakfast and that's it.

I don't want to have to think about it. Great. If that's what works for you. That's what works for you? I think that's the piece. It's like these things work in relationship with each other when we are not islands. And also we are the sovereign leaders of our lives, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Thank you so much for this conversation.

It was so amazing. Where can people find you? And what do you have in the works? If anything,

Mara: you can find me at https://www.maraglatzel.com/. You can hang out with me on Instagram. My handle is Mara Glatzel. I have a. Free five-day self-care class called Revive, which you can sign up for on my site, which is pretty fun.

I'll read the prompts to you every day for five days and yeah, just, I'd love to hear from you if you're listening to this and this resonated with you, reach out and yeah. Come hang out with me

Nancy: .Her Instagram is fabulous. She definitely walks the talk, and shows it on display on Instagram, which is really inspiring.

Mara: Thank you so much for having me. I really had so much fun here.

Nancy: Mara gave me so much to think about, especially the idea that self-trust is inconvenient. That is something we don't talk about enough. As we prioritize ourselves, as we build self loyalty, it can build more anxiety. It's important to know and give ourselves some grace around that.

When we start honoring our needs, we can get pushback that causes anxiety. If we aren't careful, we will see that anxiety as a negative thing and start engaging in old familiar patterns, meaning prioritizing everyone else in order to decrease the anxiety. But when we know, oh, that practicing self loyalty initially will increase anxiety.

We can notice that and say, oh my gosh, wow, this is uncomfortable. I'm feeling stressed and anxious. And I'm just going to sit here for as long as I can and notice. Practicing self loyalty is hard, but the more we care for ourselves, the less suffering we have.

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If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

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Episode 136: Learning the Practice of Joy

In today’s episode, I am talking with Danielle Brooker, life coach, and podcast host at The Daisy Patch, about the differences between joy, happiness, and positive thinking.

“You should be grateful,” they say. 

“It isn’t that bad. I’m just whining,” you tell yourself. 

“I shouldn’t be so negative. I have so much to be positive about in my life.” 

Man, oh, man! We really beat ourselves up for not being able to stick with positive thoughts all the time. The minute we start to feel negativity—like fear, anger, or doubt—we’re trained to step in with positivity. 

Yet anger, sadness, and doubt have things to teach us. If we skip right over these “negative emotions,” we never get to experience life on a deeper level. 

Today, I’m thrilled to talk with Danielle Brooker who helps busy, always-on women ditch stress and reclaim their joy. She owns The Daisy Patch, where she offers private coaching and group masterminds as well as digital courses. She also hosts the podcast, Let It Shine, and is a Forbes Magazine author. 

In this episode, Danielle and I totally geek out about the differences between joy, happiness, and positive thinking. There is so much good stuff here and I can’t wait for you to hear it. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What the difference is between joy and happiness

• How joy and positive thinking work together yet how they are completely different

• How you can be uncertain and feel really bad and at the same time experience joy

• Why she refers to her online home as The Daisy Patch

Resources mentioned:

• The Make Light Show

• The Opt-In

• Speaking of Racism

• The Daisy Patch Website

• Instagram: thedaisypatchcoaching

• LinkedIn: Danielle Brooker

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Nancy: Before we get into this week's episode, I want to take a few minutes to chat about the recent events with the murder of George Floyd, by the police officer, Derek Chauvin and the resulting peaceful protests and riots. Yesterday as my husband and I were watching the news and seeing the variety of images from police and protestors, walking together in peace to looters running out of broken store windows.

I said, how is this going to stop? I have watched the videos and listened to the news and heard the guttural pain of the black voices. You have protested and screamed at the top of your lungs to be heard and still black men, black women and black children are senselessly murdered. I want to acknowledge your pain and thank you for finding the energy to continue to speak march and demand change. As a white woman, it is easy to fall into overwhelm to watch what is happening on TV and social media.

And think the problem is too big. What can I do? How can I make a difference? And then my Monger steps in to shame and ridicule me for not knowing the right way among many other things. And I become paralyzed. To be honest, I've lived in that paralysis for too long. I have stayed silent for fear of doing it wrong.

If you are a white person and have also heard the pain of the black voices and are tired of living in paralysis, I want to offer you three actionable steps. Number one, read, listen, educate yourself. I recommend you find podcasts, books or other resources written by black people. Three podcasts. I would recommend.

Number one, Make Light number two, The Opt-In Podcast. And number three, Speaking Of Racism, we will link to those in the show notes. The second actionable step. Notice your BFF. Our BFF is always going to protect us from feeling shame, whether from our mongers or from the outside world. I have seen my BFF a lot this week.

I see a post on social media that makes me feel shame. And my BFF comes out to say who does she think she is? Or I have pain too. When I hear my BFF talking, I ask myself, wow, what is that about? Is there something I need to own here seeing privilege? Hard. It makes us feel uncomfortable and we need to get uncomfortable.

We need to see how we are part of a system that perpetuates pain and claims innocent black lives. You know how I always talk about the power of, AND here you go. You are a kind loving person. And you have biases against black color. You have them because they're everywhere in our culture, in our families, in our media, we swallow them every day and we have to start owning them, getting uncomfortable and making corrections. The third actionable step. Talk about it. Find spaces to have honest conversations about these topics. I reached out to a friend of mine this week and we have agreed to create a shame free space where we can challenge each other and say things we feel stupid saying most importantly, create those spaces with other white people do not seek safe spaces or require emotional labor from black people, especially right now.

We need ongoing systemic change. This is not a let's look at the issue of race and privilege hard this week. And then next week, go back to life. As normal situation let's commit to on going systemic change, I will do it wrong. You will do it wrong. We are human. We do things wrong. Remember there is no right way, but here is my new motto.

When you make a mistake, listen, learn. Make corrections.

Danielle: Like you don't stay in a state of happiness all the time. I think that's probably somewhat impossible. Whereas for me, joy is more of a source. It's more like tapping into something deep and inner. That makes me feel like me.

Nancy: You should be grateful

It isn't that bad.

I'm just whining.

I shouldn't be so negative.

I have so much to be positive about it.

Man. Oh man, we really did beat ourselves up for not being able to stick with positive thoughts all the time. The minute we start to feel negativity, fear, anger, doubt sadness. We're trained to step in with positivity.

Positive thinking is something that has been hardwired into us. It's a cultural norm. We don't have the patience for negativity because we've been trained. That negativity is heavy. It's less efficient positivity is light, airy and fun. So it's easier to be around. The negativity, feeling bad. Ignore it. Just look at all the things you should be feeling positive about.

Your listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane.

Positivity and the relentless hunt for it is something that keeps us stuck. It prevents us from getting into the depth of life. It prevents us from making changes, anger, sadness, doubt. They have things to teach us places. We might need to make a change or experience something on a deeper level. If we skip the quote negative emotions, we never get to experience life on a deeper level.

All this month, I'm talking about things that keep you stuck. I'll be interviewing Mara Glatzer about self-care and how those of us with high functioning anxiety struggle with engaging in self-care. And our lack of self-care keeps us stuck in over functioning. Jen Louden will be here to share her new book called Why Bother?, which is what to do when you feel stuck in your life.

And I'll be talking about the high functioning anxiety mantra. I got this, which keeps us stuck in overdrive. Today, I'm thrilled to bring on an expert on joy to talk about positive thinking. Danielle Brooker is a coach who works with busy, always on women to ditch their stress and reclaim their joy. This might be my favorite part of her bio.

I'm also the first to tell you that feeling bad is just as good for you as feeling good. It's just that we've lost touch with feeling good. We spend too much time focused on our stress, our busy-ness and our. Joy gets limited air time in our lives. So when we come to want it, we don't know how to experience it.

Danielle has been an author for Forbes magazine, which is where we met. She interviewed me for an article. She got started in coaching after a decade in government policy, economics and health charity roles. She's from South Africa and has lived in Australia, Japan, and now London, Danielle, and I totally geek out about the difference between joy, happiness, and positive thinking.

There's so much good stuff here. I can't wait for you to hear. Danielle. And I talk about the difference between joy and happiness, how joy and positive thinking work together and how they are completely different, how I can be uncertain and feeling really bad. And at the same time experienced joy and why she refers to her online home as the Daisy patch.

Okay. I'm so excited today to have Danielle Brooker here with me, we are going to be talking about joy, all things, joy. She's a joy coach. And also positive thinking. This month, we're talking about things that keep us stuck. And so I'm interested to hear. Danielle has to say about that topic.

Welcome, Danielle

Danielle: Thank you. I'm really excited to be here and to be having this conversation with you.

Nancy: I know you talk, obviously being a joy coach, you talk a lot about joy. So what is joy to you and what is the difference between joy and happiness?

Danielle: Oh, good question. So we're just diving straight in

Nancy: jumping in girlfriend.

Danielle: It's actually a really good question. And I'll probably start with that distinction between joy and happiness, because I feel like it's almost like the first thing you go to, like you hear joy and you think isn't it just being happy and to me it's really distinctly different. I really think of joy for me personally, is.

More of this deep source. It's more of this deep, almost fuel source that I tap into. It's when I'm feeling personally my most grounded and calm and like crystal clear in my thinking and feeling, and, it's almost like. Source of immense gratitude, immense love. It's not necessarily for me, like skipping down the street with glee, all the time.

Although, sometimes sure. I have been known to skip down the street, but that's certainly not what joy is to me all the time. Whereas when I think about happiness, I think like happiness is more like. It's more like a state of experience like it. And in some ways it can almost be driven by external things.

I am happy in a conversation with my friends. I am, happy about reading a book or like happy being on holiday. It's a short-lived experience almost like you don't stay in a state of habit. All the time. I think that's probably somewhat impossible. Whereas for me, joy is more of a source.

It's more like tapping into something deep and inner that makes me feel like me.

Nancy: Oh, that makes you feel like you. I like that. Okay. So like in my work, it would be like the biggest fan type spots. So that could be one that, okay. That's cool. I hadn't thought about it like that. Because I think of joy as like skipping down the street and you're saying that can be, yeah, but even if you're in the midst of grief or like right now in the midst of, during COVID-19 in the midst of high anxiety and uncertainty, I can still tap into my joy. Yes. And what would that look like?

Danielle: This is really interesting, because I know you had commented on a blog post. I wrote recently.

Which is touching on this point is like, how can I be uncertain and feeling really bad and at the same time experience joy, like how can I, and for me, first of all, I think about, yes joy is on the spectrum of emotions that we can feel. And, in a time of uncertainty, life, at the time of recording now, there's a lot of uncertainty going on in the world.

But there's also uncertainty just every day, you think about like small changes that we make in our life or, bigger changes. Should I shouldn't I quit my job, the uncertainty that that, those sorts of questions throw up for us when there's a lot of uncertainty.

What we tend to do is we want to. Get back in control. Like we want to clean tight. There's oh, like I don't want to feel stressed. I don't want to feel confused about this. I don't want to feel uncomfortable. And when we clean onto that I talk about this in the context of like, why we busy ourselves as well.

But when we clean and this is come me, but I'm tensing my body right now, but it's like this tightness and it's almost like this numbing that we do. Yeah. What I say is like, when we're doing that, we're not even experienced, like we're doing it because we don't experience the pain, but we're also when we're not experiencing the pain, the discomfort, the stress, the busy-ness.

We're also not experiencing the other side of the emotional spectrum, which is things like calmness state of groundedness pleasure, joy love. And when I, so when I talk about if you are, how can I in this moment of uncertainty also experienced joy for me, I guess it's remembering that all the feelings are OK

If that's the simplest possible way that I can put it, it's acknowledging that anything that's coming up is natural and I choose to hold tight and worry about it, or try and fix it or try and control it. Then what I'm actually doing is holding myself back from all of the other emotions.

And the emotions give us our experience of life.

I'm like, don't get me wrong. Like somewhat some emotions for me. I just really not always that welcomed. You're like, please go away. I don't want you right now, but the more that I can remind myself, like in that moment, Hey, this is an emotion like this is not this is not a forever thing. This is an experience, this is to help me experience whatever's going on right now, quicker.

I can move through it as well. Like the more uncomfortable ones. I'm trying to think of like a practical example. All right. So this is what the blog post was about the other day. This is just a silly, small, practical example, but it helps. Yeah. Bring it to life is I was literally sitting on the couch.

We're on stay at home, stay safe policies at the moment. Sorry. There's a lot of at home. I'm in a small place with my Partner working from home. And I'm sitting on the couch and it's Spring and there's this beautiful sunshine streaming through. I'm sitting doing a little bit of work and reading and I'm a sunshine person.

I'm just laughing it up, going, oh, Amazing. And then I start to smell something really gross. It was like the sewage smell coming through and I'm like, oh, yuck. So in that moment, my body tensed up, I was like, I was getting frustrated. I almost wanted to be like, what's going on? Where's that coming from?

Can we get rid of that? Can we fix that? Please close the door. What's going on? What was my instant reaction? And. It just took me a moment to be like notice that tension. And then I was also in that tension. Because I, play around with this in my life. I'm like hang on a second.

The suns really nice too. Do I need to hold tight to this grossness? Or could I just be, could I just breathe through it? Like literally breathe through the yucky smell. And when I did, I realized that yes, it was gross. Then it got a little bit less gross than it got a little bit less gross. And before I knew it, I was back into that kind of Oh, the suns really nice. And isn't this beautiful on my couch is really comfy. Does that does that kind of make sense? It's holding at the same time.

Nancy: Yeah, I think that's an awesome example. Because you also went on, I think to be like, how dare they lay the mulch on, today when I had my window open in a Sunday like then we can get in.

Yeah, we can get into righteous indignation and blah, blah, blah. And it just spins us so much. Sorry. Because I had an interesting this morning, I was I told you before we got on the today has been like a tough day, like started rough. And so I go into what's going on? How can I fix this? How can I get into a better mood?

Where's my monger talking and what can I do to get out of this? And I was walking the dog and I was like, you should be enjoying this, look around it's sunny and blah, blah, blah. And then finally some little voice inside of you, right? Sharing this to be like, I think this is what you're saying.

Some little voice inside of me said, what if you're in a bad mood? Yes. And I was like, yeah. And then everything softened, like as soon as I said what if you're just in a bad mood? It was. And then the next phrase in my came into my head was its so hard to be in a bad mood. Yeah. And that was just such a foreign thought to me to give myself kindness around that instead of trying to push myself out of it all the time.

Danielle: Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I'm talking about. And I really feel particularly as high achievers, as high functioning, what we want to do when we feel discomfort or stress, or there's a problem at work, or we don't have the answer to something. Yes. I think that's almost like our learned strategy in that moment is oh my God, I'm grumpy.

Oh my God. I'm not supposed to be grumpy. I teach everybody how to feel joy.

quick, get out of it. So I like, and I love your experience there of like when that other voice is hang on a sec, maybe this is just a grumpy mood. Like you're entitled to feel grumpy. What happens even in the acknowledging. Of the feeling. There's a soft thing. And I know it because you have this three-step process on ask, ask.

Yeah.

Nancy: Knowledge is the feelings is the first step. Yeah.

Danielle: Which is so powerful. And sometimes this stuff can sound sorry. I dunno, like esoteric, but like literally genuinely that is my experience sitting on the couch going well, hang on a sec. What if I did. Don't get grumpy about the awful or what if I just acknowledged that, Ooh, this is a bit gross, like what could happen next?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I think that it's, we're constantly trying to push ourselves out of it and instead of accepting that it's there and how do I move forward with that? Because I think that is, to go back. You said something that I think is really powerful is the idea that all things.

All things are uncertain. You mean like it's really uncertain now and that's in our face of how uncertain it is and granted, I, it's but when you think about it on a bigger picture, we never know, we don't know what's going to happen in September ever. Yeah. We definitely don't know now, but we certainly, we make plans as if we know, but we don't know.

And I think that's an interesting kind of wrapping your head around that. There's some freedom there.

Danielle: Oh yeah. That's so true. It's so weird. Isn't it? Because if you can just, if I have this expression, like I think we're all control freaks at our core. And I think part of that is going okay. Cool. Acknowledging that I'm constantly seeking this balance between control and certainty in my life. But also if I took away all of the uncertainty, you'd be so bored. Yes. If there was no variety, it'd be like, as much as you're craving that. So it's this weird dynamic that plays out between them both.

And I think it's not so much, it's not so much about not getting control. It's about being really aware or about how you're going about it. Is what you were saying there with that kind of freedom piece or the, how you're going about it. If you're trying to be like, Nope, stop that, push that away.

I don't want to feel grumpy anymore. Let's go and fix it. It's a really short lived feeling of control because in that split second of, no, we don't need that right now. You feel like, yes, I'm digging when I've got this, I've got, and then five seconds later, it's oh my God, I'm grumpy again, right?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah, but that's the fascinating part is that it feels like when I said to myself, What, if you're just having a bad mood? There was a part of me that was like, oh no, we can't accept this because then we've lost control completely. Then you're just to the whims of your mood.

Yeah. Which is not true.

Danielle: Yeah. And it's interesting. Because I imagine like when you start with that, which is what happened when I was sitting on the sunny couch, when I sat with it for long enough, actually. I did get back to my control and I got it back in a much more, I say like sustainable or resourceful way.

Like I could keep running that strategy and it would work really well. But I think one of the things that has helped me so much with this is knowing that physically in our body emotions only lasts for 90 seconds. And I remember where I first learned that, but when I launched, I was like 90 seconds.

That's not long. I can handle 90 seconds. I think that's just a really cool thing to know so that when you are in that pain and discomfort, and you're trying out this new strategy, and maybe you do get the little voice going, hang on, maybe it's okay to be grumpy. Like maybe you get to that level of awareness.

Maybe the next step is going okay. What if I could give myself permission to feel grumpy, knowing very well. As long as you're bringing that awareness to it, like it, that feeling that discomfort, that grumpiness that you don't want could only last 90 seconds. Could you do it for 90?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, because I feel like we're constantly when we're like, oh, like the. We're either demonizing the people who are spreading the mulch and making the poopy smell, or were demonizing ourselves for being in a crappy mood. Instead of that's what I felt like this morning and you on the couch, like I saddled up next to myself and was like, what if we support ourselves through this instead of pushing, berating ourselves for having this feeling and.

And, sometimes it does feel, like I could do the righteous indignation, like anyone's business, and sometimes that feels like you're getting control because it's their fault. But in reality, it's not. Yeah. You've just compiled everything by blaming them and slamming the door shut and now the sun has gone.

You’re mad at them too what end?

Danielle: And now I'm trying to pump out work from this really cranky mood and, and I think, so the thing with control as well, which you've just touched on is part of what I'm saying, like about switching it to a sustainable resourceful strategy. Not even part of it, all of it has to do with coming back to you because I think we can try and seek control and others. It's their fault. That's where the indignance comes from. Like they need to fix this. They need to stop with the mulch, but if we're going to try and control what other people are doing in our lives, we're just going to be grumpy all the time.

It just doesn't work. Just think of the last time that you tried to judge, is my boss in a good mood or not today should I shouldn't I ask them like, or like I've done this with my partner before going, oh, he seems in a bad mood. Maybe I'll just, maybe I'll just cheer him up.

I'm like just let it go. Let him but when it comes from you and you choose how to feel about that person's mood, or you choose how to feel about it. The mulch and the smells and being grumpy, like instead of that kind of fix it mentality, actually you do get back, like you get to drive, so you're back in control, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because that mind reading, that's the thing. That's another boat, but that is where, I know that's something. A lot of high functioning people pride themselves on is being able to read, predict what's what people need. And sometimes we nail that but sometimes we don't, and it's just a lot of extra work.

Danielle: Yeah. A lot of extra work, a lot of extra time and energy that could be spent on actually feeling good.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Okay. So let's go back and tell me about how you got into this. How did you become a joy coach? What was your path?

Danielle: Okay. My path is so zig zaggy and I don't want to give you the four hour version. So a couple of like milestones or like realizations for me were things like. One, I've always been like a positive sunny person. Like I've always just seen the good in people, in things and experiences. At some point along the way, I started to hide that a little bit or soften it or not let it shine too much.

Because I was worried about standing out or what would people think if they're in a bad mood and I'm in a good mood, what's going on, by the way, none of this was conscious. This is like from like connecting the dots, looking backwards. So there was that element of it. I was also I'm someone who always did the right thing.

Studied really hard, wanted to get the good job, did get an amazing job. Had this wonderful career, got promoted very quickly. I actually love my job. And from the outside, looking in everything was great. Good job, amazing mentors, wonderful friends and family, good relationship, I could go on and on, but I was coming home, exhausted, stressed out and crying every night.

Like no idea why. I thought I had to fix it by enrolling in a master's degree. Part-time and that's great. This is something I've always been passionate about. Maybe I need to fix it by, I dunno, like hanging out with my friends, more, taking more breaks, going to yoga classes. There were all the things that I was trying to do to cut a long story short.

There was this absolute burnout from all of that. And part of the burnout

Nancy: Burnout from the fixing or a burnout from the crisis or a combination.

Danielle: That's a good question. I guess a combination like by burnout I literally took time off from work, like to a point where I had to stop, like my body, like my heart, my emotions, everything was like, you just have to stop.

Okay. Which was still looking back, one of the hardest things I've ever done in my life tell a busy, always on highly ambitious person to stop and you're taking away their lifeline.

Nancy: What were some the signs that you needed to do, that?

Danielle: That I needed to stop?

Nancy: Yes,

Danielle: Coming home crying every night.

I'm like, what's wrong. I had a lot of digestive issues that I thought were like, related to what I was eating. So I was trying to fix what I was eating. I was getting migraines. I kept going back to the doctor saying, give me something stronger, nothing would work. And I was saying to her I don't understand nothing's working.

And she was like, maybe just breast. I'm like, yeah, no, I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. I'm fine. And, but there were a couple of other things like. One and to be honest, like it was all around the same time, mushed into one. Another thing was my boss was retiring and he asked me, Hey, why don't you apply for my job?

And I laughed it off. I was like, oh, you're so funny. That would never be me, blah, blah, blah. And I thought that kind of planted a seed of why isn't that the natural next progression? Why you're not even considering it. I also had this somewhat profound kind of experience where I randomly was at work very busy, stressed on a weekend, finishing up a master's degree and got distracted and ended up booking myself on a overseas volunteering program in Kenya.

Oh, my something I had always dreamt of doing, but for some reason I got distracted from the, what I should do. And in that moment was like, oh, let me Google that thing that makes me come alive. Let me Google. It feels really good. And that was another seed. So there were the seeds of going into, hang on, maybe you need to do things differently.

Maybe you need to be asking different questions. Maybe this is not for you. And after that Kenya experience, which was. Yes, time away from work. But I had approached it from a very career oriented that I'm going to do this thing, and it's going to look good on my CV. And so I got back from that and I, they, as part of the program, send you away on this personal empowerment development weekend.

And I love give me any course training workshops. Self-help thing. That was me. I was always like, yes, please give me more learning. But on this weekend I got to actually experience coaching firsthand and these beautiful, incredible coaches were leading the weekend. I got to have a conversation with them, like six of them one-on-one for half an hour.

And I, once again, thought, no, something's not working at work. I'm really stressed. Maybe I need a career change. So that was what the theme of every conversation was. What do I do to progress? What do I do to get to them? Or what do I do to get better? Because you know, I'm not filled up yet. And in one of the conversations, I know this is a really long story.

Nancy: No, you're, it's great. I'm. Keep going,

Danielle: but what, it was really profound for me. So one of the conversations I opened my mouth and I just started balling. She was a coach and a psychologist. And I think something in me was like, she must have the answers or like this. I can trust her or It just opened me up where I lost the whole career conversation.

And to be honest, you probably only asked me one or two questions, but it changed the direction because one of the questions she just asked is what is it you most need right now? And my answer was, I need two weeks off work to do nothing. That was all I needed. And even in saying the answer, the relief in my body, like I just, I was petrified.

I was scared. I was nervous and I was relieved. So all of that was just this combination of art adults. What you have to do, you actually have to completely take time off. Like you cannot come up with new answers. You cannot know what your next step is. You cannot course correct digestion and migraines and all of the stuff.

If you don't stop first, if you don't give yourself space first. So that was my starting point and two weeks very quickly turned into six weeks. Oh, wow. Yeah. Yeah.

Nancy: And in that time, in the six weeks, what did you do? Just literally relaxed.

Danielle: Yeah, like I was so fortunate. And I'm forever grateful this particular GP.

And I had seen various GPS over the years about all the digestion and headaches and blah, blah, blah. This particular one was quite new to me. In fact, I don't think I'd seen her at all before. I think I purposely booked like a brand new GP when I got back from that weekend with where the combination was go take two weeks off.

And once again, I open my mouth and I said, ah it was tears and she's what did I write you off for two weeks? Stress leave. I think that's what you need. Oh, wow. That's awesome. But she actually said to me, she's what you need to do is go and do nothing. And she's yes, nothing means sit on the couch.

Yes. Nothing means watch all the movies read all the books. And she said, nothing also means. Go for a walk every day also means get out of the house. It was such an important distinction because the high achiever that I am, I'm on stress leave. I'm not allowed to leave my house. I have to not stress. I have to relax.

I was like, oh my God, I have to do the right thing. Yeah. If someone sold me out, but she, in some weird way, she gave me permission to actually just do whatever the hell I wanted.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And was that hard?

Danielle: Oh yes. Like it was so hard because I'm, I was a highly sociable person used to thriving in a work environment, doing all the things suddenly I was at home, everyone else was at work.

Talk to during the day when everyone's busy at work, there's nothing to do. I had this vision of reading all the books and then I'd sit there and be like, I don't know what book to read. I'm uncomfortable. I don't want to sit still, I got bored of the TV, it was really uncomfortable to begin with

Nancy: I asked that because I know so many of my clients will say, oh, I just that would be their dream.

For their doctor to give them, but then when it happens, it's super stressful. It's not the dream that you think it's going to be, which is why I was pushing it.

Danielle: In my head I was like, oh my God. Yes. She gave it to me—2 weeks off! I celebrate it. I'm like, oh my God. I had to call work and tell them and oh my God, like when you talk about like your Monger coming up like that, I basically have to call my boss and tell him I'm a terrible person that does not have anything together.

I cannot do my job. And my doctor has told me to stay at home and do nothing like and I was petrified. And I don't know how long this will be for maybe two weeks, maybe longer. And it was out of the blue when I eventually did return to work, my boss, like they were like just amazing. Like they took so much care of me, had amazing support in place.

One of the things my boss did say to me was. Maybe next time, could you just keep us updated because yeah. It went from nothing to like extreme and I can totally see that now as well.

Nancy: Which I think is how it works because we're so unaware of our own process and we're trying to fix it.

Danielle: Yeah. So these people want to help us that was a big revelation for me is they didn't think I was a horrible person. They didn't, they still respected me. They still gave me work to do it was actually, they wanted to help. It's just that they had no idea where I was at.

Nancy: Yeah.

Interesting. Yeah.

Danielle: I spent six weeks, like slowly, surely getting used to it. And I did create a routine for myself. I did read, I did watch some TV, but I also went for a walk every single day. Would stay connected, core family or friends and things like that. But one of the most powerful things I did and still to this day I do is I started to take myself out for a coffee at a coffee shop, every single morning by myself.

And I love coffee. I'm like, I love going to Australia. Australia's got this beautiful, like cafe vibe, which is, where I was living at the time I am Australian. You'd probably pick that up from my accent. I'm living in London. I don't know. I haven't shared that with listeners yet, but It was terrifying because I'd never really done it a line unless I was like traveling in an exotic location.

And I had to learn how to be alone, I had to learn how to sit with the discomfort whilst trying to enjoy it and telling myself I must relax. I'm supposed to be relaxing. That's what I did. And it became a ritual and it's been it's a non-negotiable in my self-care well-being.

Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome.

So you do that every day?

Danielle: Pretty much. Yeah. Sometimes. And I say sometimes I invite my partner to come with me. There is a version of it that happens pretty much every day, which to me, like sometimes it's 20 minutes, sometimes it's an hour, which is basically one of the core ingredients for me is spaciousness. There's no preconceived ideas of what that time is for. So sometimes, but it's never in front of a computer.

It's always me and my notebooks. I take about a gazillion notebooks with me to the cafe because I'm never sure what mood I'll be in. And it's just to be with myself. My thoughts sometimes I sit and stare. Sometimes I chat to the person sitting next to me. Sometimes I journal sometimes I like get ideas for blogs and, be creative for work.

But the idea is that it's me, myself and I

Nancy: that's awesome. Yeah. I like that. Yeah. Because a lot of people don't have that relationship with themselves.

Danielle: And I didn't, I'd never stopped for long enough. I didn't know that I didn't. I thought I was, this confident, independent person and I was, but I had never been alone for long enough to really know myself. And I think that's what all the busy-ness had masked is anytime a question of like that might've popped up way back in the back of my heart or mind like, oh, is this job right for you? Should you still be doing this? It would get covered by the next thing, like the, the dinner date I had that night or the project deadline, or so there wasn't ever the spaciousness to sit with it.

My coffee date with myself started to create that space for me to actually, even just allow the questions to bubble the different questions give you different answers. And that really, I know your original question was essentially like, how did I end up being a joy coach?

That was where it started to bubble up. Like it was like how what are the bits of my life that feel really good? What are the bits that bring me joy and they wouldn't have ever bubbled up if I'd never given myself.

Nancy: Ah, I gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. That makes sense. Yeah. So then how did joy become, because you always had, so then, like you said, I always had this part of me that was positive and happy that you had been stifling or joyful, I guess I should say rather than happy.

So you really tapped into that part or …

Danielle: like I was still that person. I just more and more sorry that when I went down this path of questioning and following what made me feel good and even starting my business journey into coaching and training and all of that, the common thread. Anytime I ask myself what will make you feel good?

What will bring you more joy? Led me closer to coming alive again let me closer to feeling like that spark was always there, but it was like I was flaming it and suddenly I was like more and more I don't know, like I just felt so excited to be doing what I was doing. And even when I was in my full-time job whilst growing my business and during my training, I could say part time, but it was two full times.

People would say, aren't you busy on your stress? How do you do it all? And I'm like, no, because this thing that I'm growing on the side is fueling me because it's coming from a place of joy. That was part of it. And then the other part of it, there was this really pivotal kind of exercise I'd done as part of like a business program, and it was essentially to reach out to friends, family colleagues, and ask them what they believe your super powers are. Ask them what it is. So powerful, like just, yeah, just the most simple, yeah. Incredible question to ask

Nancy: and a hard question to ask I'm sure.

Danielle: Yeah. Like it feels a little bit awkward oh, can you please tell me what you like about me,

Nancy: but I can totally see that.

Yeah. I could see the power though, because so often. They see us so different, like in, can see minus all the crap in our heads.

Danielle: it's like my family who have obviously known me forever, I asked friends from like different walks and stages of my life. And I asked colleagues as well, like professional people and pretty much every single person wrote back and said some version of your positivity, your sunniness, your thoughtfulness.

And I was blown away. What I had to face in that moment was hang on a second. The very thing that you are a little bit holding back on a little bit, too shy to give all of it, because you're worried what people will think. The very thing that everyone keeps telling you, they love most about you.

What gives you the right to hold that back? Like these people are basically saying, that's what we love about you. And you've been to. I don't know, worried about what they will think, what they think has given me more.

Nancy: Right, yes.

Danielle: So that was a big catalyst for me in welcoming it a little bit more as well.

So it was these two sides of, Hey, the question I'm asking is all about joy and feeling good and my positivity and seeing the joy and the a different perspective and a different take on things is actually a superpower, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Because that's the thing. Yeah. Thank you for sharing your welcome, your story and diving into it a little deeper.

I think sometimes do. It's just helpful to hear the whole, what was it like to be to go into overwhelm, but the thing that and I'm just making this question up as I go. So bear with me is it's so nuanced. The part that I think we miss in the personal development world is the nuance of, and that's why, I'm thinking and talking at the same time, which is not my super power. So as you're talking, I'm like, oh, like I don't have that positivity bent.

Like I don't have that. So I have a glass half full, empty, a little bit bent and a little cynicism and that I can really, get stuck in and, but the it's my whole life. I have tried to overcome that by being positive and switching my mindset and changing. But in our conversation, it's coming, it's the realization of what if that bent is no better than yours positivity bent. Yeah. It's just a different bent. Yeah. What are your thoughts on that?

Danielle: There's so much power in that. Isn't that even Hey, hang on. What if I don't resist this thing? That's probably just part of me, like, why allow it? What if I give it permission? And first of all, I'd say absolutely to anyone listening, please start ask that question to anyone in your life. What are my superpowers? What do you love about me? Because I think seeing it reflected back could give you so much truth that you're resisting right now. And it's what I think I love about what you saying, Nancy, like what was coming up for me there is instead of thinking, oh my God, I need to fix the negativity and only be positive. It goes back to what we were talking about at the start of the episode, which is. Actually all of the emotions are welcomed. They're all there to give you a gift. They're all there to maybe teach you something or show you a new perspective.

So instead of resisting it, like maybe what comes up about it? And I say on my website, I say I'm a positive thinking enthusiast. That doesn't mean, I believe that you should only be positive all of the time and only tell yourself the really cool things and keep telling yourself, I, everything is, amazing all the time which is probably a little bit of a myth around positive thinking.

Nancy: Yeah That's what I'm getting at. Yes.

Danielle: And I think for anyone who's not tapped into it a lot. It can almost put you off because you're like, but life isn't really great for me right now. I don't want to just tell myself life is good. Life is good. Life is good, but actually that's not what I'm saying.

And I know that's not what you teach either. That is not what positive thinking is about when you can have a positive mindset, but you also have to do the emotional. You just turn the tap on in saying life is cup is full. You the empty cup picture, the full cup. Actually, you have to sit with both, which goes to what we're saying at the start.

Like you have to sit with both, you have to welcome it all in, in order for you to take on that fresh perspective in order for you to think and feel differently, you have to sit with it. And it takes me to a lot about what I teach around joy as well. And I talk about joy being a muscle and you have to practice feeling good in our life.

And a bit about positive thinking that I come to is what we tend to do is we give a lot of it's what you focus on is what you get. So if you're only focusing on the empty. Then you've got a problem. Yeah. But if you're acknowledging that sometimes it's full, sometimes it's empty, like giving both sides a little bit of attention.

Then you're welcoming a deeper wider range of experiences into your life. Why I focus so much on joy is because I feel like we almost have this kind of push away mentality. No, no things are not good or no things are really stressful. I need to fix the stress instead of hang on a second.

What does it even feel like, for me to feel relieved for me to feel calm for me to feel joy? So if you can practice that, if you can build a muscle around it, so that on your crappy days on your whether it's a high anxiety day or the sewage smell coming through the back all day, because your muscle strength is that because you even know what feeling good feels, right?

It's like you can access that state with more. With more ease.

Nancy: Yeah, I, yeah, because that's what happened. What, what happened this morning? When I was doing the walk-in before I had the aha about let's just allow this. I was like, look at the sky, be grateful, doing all that forced positivity. And, but then after I had the moment of this is hard, what if it's just hard to feel this way? And we're just going to let this go. Then when I was like, wow, look at the blue sky. It's so pretty. Like my perspective did shift. And so the what I think the takeaway is that we lump emotions and mindset, all in behavioral and one big thing. And that we think we can manipulate our emotions by switching our mindset or our behavior, instead of allowing the emotion and acknowledging the emotion. And then that opens us up to a deeper perspective, which is almost exactly what you just said, (laughter).

Danielle: because I was thinking it's almost like in that moment you were thinking. I must think the sky is beautiful today. Like you were trying to think your way into the feeling, whereas actually have to feel like, so, maybe I'm just going to sit in the grumpiness.

Maybe that's okay. Gave you a sense of relief so that when you do then look at the sky, you can say, yes, the sky is beautiful, but you can also feel it.

Nancy: Yes, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's different. And because to your point about practicing joy, because I have been practicing that, perspective, then it does tap in easily.

Yeah. Then I was able to look up and see it easier. But the, but it's not about practicing, that's why I get so caught up in just think positive or just say what you're grateful for, because if you have an acknowledged, what's really going on, that's just a bandaid on top of everything.

Danielle: Yes, I so agree. And I love that you brought up gratitude actually, because if you just say I'm grateful. I'm grateful. Yeah, it's nice. And you can maybe remember more things you're grateful for, but to actually practice gratitude to me is when I say why, when I say, because what is it about those that makes me grateful?

Because you cannot answer that question without feeling. Yes, right? Yeah. I'm grateful. It's a sunny day today, but that's just like a high-achiever. Yep. I'm grateful. It's sunny. I'm grateful. I'm Nancy right now. But when I say so grateful, it's sunny because I feel more alive when the sun is shining. I love that feeling of warmth on my skin.

It makes me feel more energized. I couldn't help, but feeling that right now.

Nancy: Yeah. That, because I was just, I was actually doing my continuing education for my license during COVID, which was like, yay me using my time productively in my high functioning. But one of the guys talked about gratitude and I always say name five things you were grateful for that happened that day that are unique. That's usually my thing, but he said, pick one thing you're grateful for at the end of the day and live it with all of your senses. Oh, what you did, you could feel the sun and the, That, because you know that because then you're immersed in it and it has such a different power than just, I'm happy for my sheets.

I'm glad I have a bed. I'm glad that which is, but he said that it has to be something that's unique to that day, which I thought was just, I love that.

Danielle: What I love about it is it really supports you to go into the immersion because there's five different senses you've got to touch on.

And what it also makes you do is slow down. And take a poll. You cannot rush these things. You cannot rush gratitude. You cannot rush feelings.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I'm so glad you said that. That was a good little wrap up there, right there. So tell us, so tell people where they can find you, what you got happen in, how they can work with you, et cetera, et cetera.

Danielle: Ooh. Okay. So I think the best place to come and get a flavor for what I'm all about is over on my website, which is the Daisy patch.co.uk. And I have a ton of content there specifically around blog posts. Very much like what I'm focused on is working with highly ambitious, stressed out women. They tend to be in their thirties and at this like stuck crossroads and.

I really take them from like questioning. Should I shouldn't I quit my job all the way through to living a joyful life, regardless of what life, regardless of what job. So a lot of my blog content is supporting you to feel more human, to bring in joy, but also answer some of those tough questions and my favorite, like kind of social place to hang.

Instagram. So at the Daisy patch, coaching over an Instagram, come and say hi I really love hearing from people in my DMs and the comments. Like I love conversation as you've probably gathered know.

I do have like various offers and from time to time in terms of group programs and like digital courses and things like that. But the best place to be updated is to come and grab my emails. Like just sign up to them. Actually, if you go to the Daisy patch.co.uk/ feel-good, I've got a call list of 99 ways to feel really good.

Which is just like a fun way to say, like when you're stuck in a right, sometimes it's nice to just throw a fresh perspective at you to just pick up something. Maybe I'll try one of these things and it'll just put me on that kind of bridge to joy. So that's probably a really cool place to some people actually.

Nancy: Cool. Because I think it is sometimes, like changing your state in those, can really flip things. I think that's positive. Where did the daisy patch come from?

Danielle: So it's got lots of meaning to me personally, and then symbolically as well. So I just love daisies, the fresh and fun and yellow is my favorite color.

And I grew up with like huge, big Daisy bushes in my grand's backyard, so that it has a lot of familiarity. And then Daisy is symbolically very much. Joy and happiness and like new life and beginnings and sunniness and things like that. The patch is about this kind of metaphor.

A two-fold metaphor around seeing personal growth in your life and taking care of yourself and your own wellbeing. Your garden and really supporting that patch of growth in your life. Like it's always going to take the nourishing and the care, and sometimes you're planting seeds. Sometimes you're pulling out weeds, you can change what flowers you have there.

But it's also to say that we've all got our own patches and it's part of this kind of grand vision I have with the Daisy patch to grow it into all these patches globally, where we can all support and nourish and have that community. So it's got like this multi-filled aspects.

Nancy: Oh,that's awesome.

I'm glad I asked. I was so curious

Danielle: It has been so long since I have talked about it and it brings me so much joy to talk about it.

Nancy: So that was really fun. Okay. Yeah. This was awesome. Thank you so much for being willing to, come on and just talk about this stuff. In a loose way, it was really, I had a lot of aha for me, so that's awesome.

Hopefully all the listeners did too.

Danielle: Thank you so much for having me.

Nancy: Honestly, I hadn't thought about joy in this way. This conversation was an eye opener for me and has encouraged me to find more joy in my everyday life. Since this conversation, I've noticed how I suck all the joy out of things by turning them into duty.

I just talked about this in last week's episode. Number 135, finding joy is a meaningful goal. It brings more authenticity and loyalty into our lives, which is exactly what we need. If you want to hear more about my take on positive thinking. Listen to episode 102 Radical Acceptance Versus Positive Thinking.

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Episode 135: The Myth Of The "Right Way"

In today’s episode, we’re talking about doing things the “Right Way” and—surprise!—how there’s no such thing.

Today, we’re talking about doing things the “Right Way” and—surprise!—how there’s no such thing. 

Unsurprisingly, many of my clients live for “doing it right.” 

For them, there is nothing more amazing as hearing: Yes, you’re doing it right. In fact, one of the most popular phrases I hear from clients is: I did okay, right? They’re always looking for affirmation that they did it right. 

So why is the need to do things the “Right Way” such a common experience of people with High Functioning Anxiety? 

Doing it right, following the rules, and being a good girl keeps us from criticism. And growing up—either in our family of origin or through school and church—we learned that following the rules earns us LOTS of praise. 

Not only that, but it protects us from the anxiety of not knowing what to do next. It keeps us safe—at least that’s what we convince ourselves of. 

What rules have you created for yourself? Let’s explore this together in this week’s episode and find out what we can do about it. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why there is no such thing as doing things the “right way”

• How the quest for doing things the “right way” leads to judging others

• What we miss out on when we constantly try to do things the “right way”

• How curiosity is key if we’re trying to understand why we’re afraid of getting things wrong

Some of the resources mentioned in this episode:

• Coach In Your Pocket

Transcript:

I remember the first vacation we took after my dad died. When I learned that always believing there is a right way isn't helpful. First, a little background, my dad strongly believed there was a right way and a wrong way to do anything. You name it, he knew it--needing to mow your lawn--wanting to invest in the stock market. He knew the right way. Hoping to grow a wonderful garden--he had it down. Needing to plan a perfect vacation--he knew exactly how to do it. Yes. I realized that objectively his right wasn't necessarily everyone else's right. But in my dad's world, there was a right way and a wrong way, regardless of who you were and what you preferred. Not surprisingly, he passed the need to do it the right way on.

He had a lot of rules for traveling where to eat, what time to eat, how to get there, how early to arrive, what to order on and on and on—a lot of rules. And I being a dutiful daughter, I knew how to follow the rules. Because the praise I received when I followed the rules, was like candy to a baby.

I lived for it. So before he died, I would be the one who made all the reservations, planned the perfect place and time for dinner and lapped up all of his praise.

So back to the first vacation we took without my dad, just me, my mom and my husband. As we're walking along the beach, headed to a new dinner spot, I was sharing what I had researched about the place with my mom and my husband and regaling them with the rest of the week schedule. Unknowingly, I was going through a familiar routine, share all the right things I'd done, and get ready to lap up the praise. Except my mom and my husband, they don't care about eating at the right place or at the right time. They are not rule followers. They are fly by the seat of your pants, people. So they didn't give me any praise. They just said, "Well, that sounds good. I'm sure whatever you pick is going to be great."

I will never forget that moment. As I stood there, the wind blowing on my face, sand beneath my feet. I realized how much energy I had spent on doing it right. How hooked into it I was and how much this value controlled my life. And I started getting curious about it.

You're listening to the Happier Approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

When I first realized that I had inherited this need to do it right for my dad. I was sad. I realized no matter how hard I worked to do things the right way, I would never again get the praise from my father. And then, as I got more curious, I could see how this desire to do it the right way infiltrated almost all of my life. On the one hand, doing it the right way gave me peace. And on the other hand, it kept me in check.

This month, we're exploring the unique values of someone with high functioning anxiety. Last week, we talked with Beryl young about the value of creativity, and this week I'm talking about the value of doing it right. Many of my clients live for doing it right. There is nothing as amazing as hearing. Yes, you're doing it right. In fact, one of the most popular phrases I hear from clients is "I did okay. Right?" Or "That's okay. Right?" Looking for affirmation that they did it right.

So why is the need to do things the right way, such a common experience of people with high functioning anxiety? Doing it right, following the rules, being a good girl keeps us from criticism

And bonus growing up, either in a family of origin or through school or church, we learned the following, the rules will get us lots of praise. It protects us from the anxiety of not knowing what to do next. It keeps us safe. At least that's what we convince ourselves. So what rules have you created for yourself?

Do you have rules around travel plans? Do you have rules about how to load the dishwasher? Do you have rules about where to park in a parking lot or how to do the grocery shop? I bet you have rules for just about everything. Here are three things I want to cover about the idea of doing it right.

The first thing is there is no right, way. Not surprisingly, people who are looking for the right way. We tend to be a perfectionist. We rationally know there is no one way to do anything. There is no right way yet we spend our lives looking for it the right way to drive, eat workout, cook, do a project, trim a tree. You name it. We're looking for the right one.

This belief leads us to a life of black and white thinking where there is an absolute right way and an absolute wrong way. In all situations, our monger believes finding the right way will protect us from being attacked or criticized external. Here are a few examples from my own life to show how sneaky these myths can be.

There's a right way to walk the dog. First thing in the morning, before 8:00 AM for 30 minutes, there's a right time to wake up, waking up early, meaning before 7:00 AM bonus points. If I can get up before 6:30am. Yeah. There's a right thing to eat for breakfast. Now I go through phases with this one, but right now, it's oatmeal with fruit.

There's a right order to do the morning tasks. There's a right time to fall asleep. There's a right amount of sleep. Eight to nine hours. That's ideal. There's a right way to work out and a right amount of time to work out. 60 minutes is the amount of time, and it must be cardio with a little bit of weights.

These rules become even more rigid because if you can't do it right, there is no sense in doing it. For example, if I can't work out for 60 minutes, then I won't do it. There's no sense working out if it's not for 60 minutes. Hello, rigidity. When you start to pull apart these right way myths, you start to see the faulty logic.

Well, who decides right when it comes to doing it right? The ironic thing is that right is very subjective. Your definition of right is different from mine because right is based on personal preferences, values, ideology, et cetera. And also, even if we meet our own standards and technically do it right, there will be no celebrating because we can always improve.

We can always do it better. Even after my dad would praise me for picking the right restaurant for dinner, I would spend the rest of the evening scooping out the best table to request the next time we came in, because you can always improve on right.

A great example of this doing it right is efficiency. Efficiency is a right way measure for me. When I go to the grocery store, I have a lot of rules on how to do it right. But even if I accomplished my task in the most efficient way possible, I still beat myself up for something. I just never celebrate the win. Maybe I didn't pack the groceries in the car right. Or I forgot to pick up the soap, or I picked the wrong checkout line. I always fail.

The second thing I want you to know about doing it right. Is the quest for right can lead to more judgment of others by the BFF. She loves to come out and share how others aren't doing it right in order to make you feel better.

Well, they aren't working out right. They didn't pack for their trip, right. If only they knew how to pack correctly. They are running late, a better person would have left early. They walked out of the house in wet hair. What were they thinking? They're smoking. I mean, at least we don't do that. They picked the wrong grocery line.

As I've said before, when your monger is out in full force, that usually means your monger has been out in full force as well. So judgment, especially unnecessarily super petty judgment is time to get curious. Some questions. I ask myself when I noticed the BFF. What am I judging them for?

How do I see that judgment in myself? Am I being a little rigid here? Does this really matter? What's the bigger picture and where do I need to add some kindness for me or for them?

The third thing I want you to know about doing it right. Is duty versus joy. The thing about the quest for the right way is it keeps us stuck in duty.

We miss the joy in life because we're so busy worrying about doing it right. For example, this podcast, I love writing my podcast. Honestly, I just love writing, finding the right words, digging deep for the underlying meaning asking myself, but how do I challenge myself to go deeper?

And yet often, my writing, especially on these podcasts, gets too bogged down for me in doing it right. Writing the right message, using the right language, hitting the deadline. I get so caught up in the duty of it. I miss the joy and acquest to protect myself from criticism. I miss the joy.

This concept of duty versus joy has been a big one for me. The idea of choosing duty over joy makes me sad. I see how it plays out in my life, and I see how it plays out in my clients' lives. We missed the train. Okay. So what can you do about it? There are lots of messages out there about "break the rules." "Stop being a good girl," but this is bigger than just a mindset shift. This requires us to get curious and start picking at the rigidness that surrounds our lives. The part that gets overlooked by the theories that say, well, just stop doing that is that we get something for doing it, right? Whether that be a sense of security praise or less anxiety, when we stop doing it, it feels unsafe.

It feels overwhelmingly scary. That's why we just can't stop doing it. It's too scary, which is why curiosity is so key after you noticed the right way value rearing its ugly head. Get curious, ask yourself, what is this protecting me from? What am I afraid of? Am I choosing duty over joy? Be kind to yourself and loosen up that rigidity.

Our tendency will be to judge ourselves to say, good grief. Here you go again. You're so rigid and judgy too. You know, there is no right way. Come on.

Instead, try. Wow. This is really hard finding the right way is hard-wired. I know it helped me in the past, but let's loosen that up a little. Or it's so hard to feel this tied down to doing it right.

Is this rule really needed? Can we rebel against the rule? Can you find some joy here? Because this line of thinking gets us stuck in absolutes. One way to notice this value playing out in your life is when you make if-then statements. If I don't go to the grocery store on the way home, then I'm a bad one.

If I don't work late, then I will get fired. If I commit to a dinner date, then I will be stuck the whole night. If I don't work out today, then I will be out of shape forever. See how their statements are absolutes of right and wrong. Your monger will never give you the win. You could always have done it better, but in all honesty, there is no right.

There are no absolutes. When you catch yourself engaging in all or nothing if-then statements, challenge yourself to come up with as many options as possible. Even if they seem absurd, get in the practice of expanding your options. Give yourself a checkmark. Every time you choose joy over duty, or every time you notice that if-then statement and loosen it up, aim for three checkmarks a day.

This type of exercise works with the love of checkmarks and accomplishment, but in a positive way. For example, if I don't go to the grocery store tonight, then I can go tomorrow after work, or I can ask my partner to go, or I can bring a cooler to work and grab a few things on my lunch hour and do the big shopping on Saturday.

If I don't work out today, then I can look at my schedule and find the best time to fit in a consistent workout. Maybe it would be best to do it in the morning or at lunch or turn some of my regular work meetings into walking meetings. Practice practice practice recently, a client of mine said, I wish you could just give me the freaking five step approach.

And then poof, I would be healed. Practice. Practice. Practice is annoying. Yep. I hear you. It certainly is. This is one thing I love about my work with clients via Voxer because I can regularly remind them of how they're making progress. It's hard for us to see our own progress. So it is helpful to have friends, family, or a coach there to say, wow, look how far you've come.

This is another form of positive reinforcement and a way to keep us doing this work. The work is more than just changing your mindset. It's really getting in there and changing hardwired patterns of duty praise and worthiness messages that we heard and swallowed for our own protection benefit, or because we had no choice.

And now we know they aren't serving us anymore. So it does take practice, practice, practice, but let's pick joy over duty. Let's be kind to ourselves. Let's remember this takes practice, but most of all, let's remember we got this.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

Episode 134: How Anxiety and Perfectionism Can Get In The Way Of Creativity

In today’s episode, I am talking with Beryl Young of Momtography a mom, photographer, and teacher, about High Functioning Anxiety and creativity.

Honestly, I have always had a mixed relationship with creativity. 

I have almost always loved it and thought to myself, I want to do that more! And then months, years pass before I actively pursue something creative. Why?

My Monger’s message of perfectionism and practicality always gets in the way:

“She tries but she has no talent”. 

“What are you going to do with it? You are going to have all these art projects and nowhere to put them.”

“You have to drag all the art supplies out and spend MORE money on creative. Get real.”

I get in my own way. 

This is why I wanted to talk to someone who deals with High Functioning Anxiety and is still able to pursue creativity for a living.

Today, I am talking with Beryl Young of Momtography. She is a mom, photographer, teacher, and creator of popular classes to support parents in capturing the life they love. A former elementary school teacher by day, she’s taken her experience in education and photography and brought a message of creativity, resilience, connection, and fulfillment for camera lovers young and old.

Beryl’s work has been featured on The Huffington Post, PicMonkey, Mpix, and Digital Photography School. She’s taught hundreds of moms around the globe how to use their camera to its fullest potential and connect in deeper ways to the people they love most in the world.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When Beryl realized that she had High Functioning Anxiety and how it shows up in her life

• How she got around the perfectionism that can get in the way of creativity and gave herself permission to create

• How creativity helps her manage her anxiety

• What self-care looks like to her

Resources mentioned:

• Momtogtraphy

• Free Capture What Matters Workshop

• Instagram: @momtographyceo

• Understanding Girls With AD/HD by Kathleen G. Nadeau

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Beryl: When I was faced with a blank canvas. I was like, oh, I don't want to mess it up. So yeah. What do I do with this? Which is funny because my mom is an artist and she's a mixed media artist and she has high functioning anxiety. So it shows up differently for different people too.

Nancy: Honestly, I've always had a mixed relationship with creativity.

I've rarely engaged in a creative pursuit and thought that was awful. I've almost always loved it and thought to myself, I'm going to do that more. And then months, years past before I actively pursue something creative. Why? In short, my monger, her message of perfectionism and practicality always gets in the way I can hear my fifth grade art teacher telling my mom.

She tries well, but she just has no talent. Or my Monger says, what are you going to do with it? You're going to have all these art projects and nowhere to put them, or you have to drag all the art supplies out and spend more money on creative crap. Come on.

I get in my own way when I can get past all those messages and engage my creativity, whether that be painting creative writing or practicing embroidery.

I absolutely love it. This is why I wanted to talk to Beryl Young of Momtography someone who deals with high functioning anxiety and teaches creativity for a living.

Your listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Beryl Young photo mom and mentor is a mom photographer, teacher and creator of popular classes to support parents and capturing the life they love. A former elementary school teacher by day she takes her experience in education and photography and has written a story of creativity, resilience, connection, and fulfillment for camera levers, young and old barrels work has been featured on the Huffington post PicMonkey M pics and digital photography.

She's taught hundreds of moms around the globe, how to use their camera to its fullest, potential as a tool to connect them in a deeper way to the people they love most in the world. Beryl and I talk about mongers and creativity and how they go together. I love Beryl’s, honest down to earth approach. We also discussed realizing she had high-functioning anxiety and how it shows up in her life. What self care looks like to her, how creativity helps her anxiety. How she got around her perfectionism that can get in the way of creativity, giving yourself permission to create and how you get past the message of what am I going to do with it? Once it's done.

Okay. I'm so excited today. We are going to be talking with Beryl Young about high functioning anxiety and creativity and the intersection of them, which I'm super fascinated to find out.

Welcome Beryl.

Beryl: Thank you for having me. I'm so excited to be here today.

Nancy: Thanks for showing up. Okay, so I just want to jump right in and ask, because I know you have an interesting story. How does high-functioning anxiety show up for you? Yeah.

Beryl: In so many ways that I really didn't realize, I don't think until I started my own business, like I'm a creative business owner.

And as I was building my business, I would realize that I would set these expectations for myself on what I wanted my business to look like, what I wanted my life to look like. And when that expectation and reality didn't intersect. I would beat myself up. I don't consider myself like depressed, but I would go into these depressed states where I just couldn't get motivation to do anything.

And then I also have those perfectionistic traits to control oh, I can do all of this. I'm just going to do it myself. So I tend to go into that realm as well. And if I don't think I'm going to be good at something, I just won't do it at all, especially, and that link between creativity and anxiety, I.

My main modality for creativity is a camera. And I think I chose photography because I was like, oh, there's no blank page. Like I can just go out and take a photo of something. And it's right there. When I was faced with a blank canvas, I was like, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to mess it up.

So what do I do with this?

Nancy: WAY more pressure Totally

Beryl: Totally WAY more pressure. Which is funny because my mom is an artist and she's a mixed media artist and she has high functioning anxiety. So it shows up differently for different people too. But I get the same way, like even with writing, like I enjoy creative writing too all by all sorts of pretty journals.

Because they're pretty and I want pretty things, but then. I'm like, oh, I don't want to write in it because what if I mess up?

Nancy: amen. To that. I have so many empty journals for that. Very reason. Yeah. Yeah.

Beryl: Or if I use this, then I'm going to use the whole thing. Like I, I also, I don't know if this goes along with the high functioning anxiety you'll know better than I do, but just I'm great at starting points.

As a creative it's oh, I have an idea. Let me start it. But then the follow through and finishing is very hard to,

Nancy: yeah. We call that being an 80 percenter in our house. We do 80%. And then the last 20% you don't have to do because you might do it wrong. And so if you only do the 80%, then you know that still open to perfect it.

Beryl: yep, that’s me. (Laughter) So here I am

Nancy: Before we hopped on, you were talking about how you figured this out because it was, it wasn't like you've known the high functioning anxiety and ADHD is another component of this for you. Tell me how you figured out. Have you the journey you went on to get to the,

Beryl: So we have to backtrack about four years ago.

First I went to the doctor just for like my annual checkup. And as the doctor and I were talking, I mentioned that I had been feeling anxious for a certain period of time. And as doctors sometimes are willing to do, he's oh, here's some medicine. Why don't you try taking some anxiety medicine? And so I did and I felt better.

And so that was the first inclination where I was like, oh, maybe I have anxiety symptoms. Because I started to take the medication and I did feel like, oh, some of my heart palpitations went away. Like I didn't realize I was experiencing certain physical symptoms of anxiety and I went for that doctor's appointment.

And then that paired with the fact that I'm a mom, I have a nine-year-old daughter and it was around the time that she was in kindergarten, that we started to just see how things were going with her in school. And I was like, I think she had. ADHD. And I said this to a couple of my mom, friends, and, it was always an even like the school, they would blow it off.

Oh, she's, it's just developmental. But she was always this busy kid that would never sit still. We did a, like one of my dearest neighbor friends. We would like exchange babysitting. So they would go on a date night and then my husband and I would go on a date night and she came over one night and she basically said my daughter, she won't sit still to do anything. And I'm like, okay, finally, someone else besides me and we had this like catch 22 because she was a birthday where she was like one of the youngest in her class. She made the birthday cutoff by four days. So some of what was going on in school was very much developed by them.

Some of it. I was like, ah, I don't know that this is, and so I really had to turn into this advocate of like really starting to learn about what ADHD looks like and how it can manifest in different ways that it's not just the boy that won't sit still in class that has this constant motor and. As I was doing that research by the time she got to second grade, we were still coming up against some of the same challenges that were happening in kindergarten.

And so we went to the doctor to get her evaluated and she was diagnosed with ADHD and, being her advocate and doing all of that research I started to just. Read blogs and listen to podcasts and look into books. And I came across this amazing book called Understanding Girls With ADHD. And that was when, like all the light bulbs.

Some of the high functioning anxiety traits were also very much traits that were talking about in this book. And so I then had to turn around and start educating the school. My daughter has high functioning anxiety as well. It doesn't manifest at school. We would go through TSA and she would hide behind me at age seven.

Like not willing to talk to the TSA agent because she was afraid she wasn't going to say the right thing and that they were going to they were giving her an angry look. But at school she's comfortable with her teachers. She's comfortable with her friends. That speaks volumes for the school that she goes to, but they're like she doesn't have anxiety.

She doesn't have ADHD. She's fine. She's adjusted, she's doing this, that and the other And then I would shine the light on myself and my own, like insecurities in my business, in my life, in my upbringing. And I was like, oh, you know that saying the apple doesn't fall very far from the tree, right?

Be like apple first. And then I was like, oh, hello, tree me. I think I need to explore this for myself too. And I didn't go through the full psychological evaluation as an adult. The doctor was like, oh, let's just do a little bit of a self evaluation. But I was essentially diagnosed with ADHD about a year ago.

Went, huh? I don't think I actually had anxiety. I think I had high functioning anxiety that went along with the ADHD that I've probably had my entire life. Yeah. So yeah. That's my story.

Nancy: I think it's fascinating. Because I think two things are fascinating. One just the combination of ADHD and high functioning anxiety and how that we use those coping skills.

I mean it's similar coping skills. I always say we have anxiety and to quiet the anxiety, we do these unhealthy coping skills, perfectionism people, pleasing, et cetera, et cetera, worrying about doing it wrong and the critic and all that stuff. But the same time, it's hard to pull apart.

We do the same thing with ADHD symptoms and we don't want anyone to see. So we're trying to keep it hidden that we have these, this zaniness in her head for lack of a better way. We develop these unhealthy coping mechanism, isms around us. So I think that's fascinating that, that shows up in both of those areas.

And I think it's fascinating that so often, like that's one of the main reasons I, my mom, clients come in to see me is they're like, I see this in my kids. And I'm trying to get myself under control so that I can help them.

Beryl: Totally. Yeah, no. And I was like, I have to be a good role model for my daughter.

And what does that look like? And it's also interesting to go, oh, the way it manifests in her is different than the way it manifests in me. I got a lot of my perfectionistic, like people pleasing. That my mom has, and we were both very hard workers that enjoyed school. Part of the ADHD executive functioning traits are that like, when you have diagnosed ADHD, you can hyper focus on the things that you really enjoy, but then the things that are difficult or mentally taxing you avoid.

I was avoiding a lot of things in my business, but I never avoided school. I actually enjoyed reading and I was good at school. So my anxiety never surfaced. My daughter likes socializing. She likes people. She likes the social aspects and the connection of going to school, but she's not as motivated.

But learning new things or, and the areas that are difficult for her, she can't necessarily hyper focus on. And it's very interesting to be parents seeing a child going, wait a second. Why don't you enjoy school more? I loved school, right? But you want to be able to support them. And so we have had to put a mirror, not just on her, but on me too, to go, okay how can I relate to her in this way?

Nancy: Yeah. Because I think that would be, because I don't have kids and I think that would be so hard to not put your stuff in general, not put your stuff on them but also the idea that. How can you not like school? It served me. It was a place for me to channel and get good grades and, like to really be an encouraging the apple, to be the tree and to recognize no, that's a separate being.

Beryl: Totally. Yeah, no, that separation of okay, this is her life and her expense. But also, still being the mom.

Nancy: Yes, exactly. Yeah. Yeah,

Beryl: because her high functioning anxiety also shows up and my mom just told me I could do school. I'm not good at school.

I can't lean into those perfectionistic qualities with school. And so there is this like messy emotional roller coaster of okay, I know you don't like school because of certain structures or you don't enjoy these things. And unlike me. She doesn't have as many of the people-pleasing qualities that I do.

Yes. She has other traits of high functioning anxiety, people pleasing. Isn't one of them. So she doesn't care who she offends in the process. That's not to say she wants her teachers to like her. She's not going to work hard on an assignment if she doesn't enjoy it

Nancy: solely to get the good praise from the teacher.

Beryl: Correct. She'll find other ways, but then she'll come home from school. Her high functioning anxiety, which I see in myself too, is the teacher doesn't like me, because I didn't do this work. Or I don't know how to do this. Or, she has a hard time finding her personal confidence and as do I, especially in the area when you don't feel like you can show up as your best self, where you can't have the perfect byproduct of whatever it is you're working on, right?

Nancy: Yeah. It's interesting. Because growing up, my mom also high functioning anxiety. And so she gave me a lot of like tips for how to survive the real world.

So she would walk me through This is how you make friends. And this is what you, this is the game you need to play. And these are the people that, if you suck up to these people, you'll have it easier. And just gave me these backdoor approaches to stuff, which was, I look at some point in my life, I was like, I'm so glad she gave that to me.

Because she really gave me like a, how to model, which was helpful. Because that's what she wanted. And so she gave it to me, but I never got to figure it out for myself. I was always figuring out what was her go-to, I was following the rules that she had given me, and that's how I set up my life to follow those rules rather than figuring it out for myself.

Beryl: So I know my mom did that for us too. That really resonates with me because I feel like for a long time, her model was passed down to me. You work hard. And not everyone's going to like you, and this is, we just stick to yourself and not, instead of trying to be friends with everybody, like some of her people pleasing stuff, she recognized it, but it's also interesting.

Because one of her favorite sayings was kill them with kindness. And I'm like that might've been a little bit of the people pleasing too. I also agree with that methodology as an adult too, though. But there were certain things and I can't think of a specific example right now that at some point I'm like, oh, this model of what she's passed down to me is not working for me right. In my life. And I had to reconcile that for myself.

Nancy: yeah. Yeah. And I think picking that apart is hard, and then also then I'm assuming could be triggering. Are, am I passing that down? How do I not do that to my kid? How do I not. Not that it was all terrible.

Like I think, the intention of my mom was so good. Like she was really trying to make life easier for me, but she didn't leave any room for me to figure it out for, for me to ask, is this helping? Is this how I want to do it? Especially as I got older, it would have been cool to have that be a conversation, a

Beryl: That’s a struggle for all moms How do I not mess my kind up?

Nancy: Totally. Yeah. And how do I be kind to myself when I know I have, like totally, like I just had a client recently who was like, who told me she had I just had a really bad mom moment. And she told me, the moment. And I said then you just practice Brené Brown and you circle back and you explain what happened.

That's all you could do, yeah. For sure is having that kindness. But yeah. Because I think a lot of times we want to, as adults, then we want to blame our parents, for, but to recognize they did the best they could with what they had the same as we're doing the best we can with what we,

Beryl: Mom and I just had that conversation back at Thanksgiving.

I think I had to do a lot of self inner work just around who I wanted to be. And my fears of letting my parents down when I walked the path that was different than how they had raised me, not wildly different. It wasn't like I was going out and doing terrible things, but even like getting tattoos and dying my hair pink is this image that my family.

Expects of me. I had a lot of fear wrapped in that, which was like, I was like in my early thirties, I'm like, I am in my early thirties. I should not care what my parents think. If I get tattoos and dye my hair pink and it was a thing, but it was shocking to hear. I always felt like getting. Body art. I thought my parents were not going to approve of that just because of like the portrayal of who you are.

Because we're people pleasers in our family, right? As this, the daughter that I want to showcase to my friends, when my mom and I actually had a conversation about it, it was her own high-functioning anxiety. Around like medical stuff is the tattoo parlor clean. Are you going to get some disease from going and getting this done?

She could care less about the artistic aspects. So it was interesting to see my fear. Yes, work completely different manifestation of what her fears were. But we were sitting down and just talking about some of those things about, ways, her anxiety surfaced when we were younger. And she actually said to me I hope, when you realize now that you're an adult, that we were just doing the best we could with what we had.

And what a beautiful, like self-awareness on her part to have that. Yeah,

Nancy: absolutely. Yeah. That's such a gift. Yeah. Yeah, because when I sometimes I'll think back and be like, oh my gosh, like how old was I? When my mom was my age meant to be like, oh, like in my mind she had it altogether. And then to think, oh, she felt like I feel right now, which is not having it all together.

That is an interesting that's just an interesting place to go that whole generational surviving. Totally interesting. Okay. So that went down a turn that I wasn't expecting which is why I love having these conversations. I want to take it back to creativity because for a lot of people, and you've mentioned this with the blank page and the, that I'm not, I can't even, maybe not for a lot of people, but for me, creativity is hard.

That is the ultimate trigger. And it is something that really helps when I can bust through all the crappy messages. And I can even remember, it was a couple of years ago, my husband and I took a painting class. My husband is loves to be creative. He took a painting, we took a painting class and I have the typical story of art class and the art teacher took my mom aside and was like, yeah, she does not have it. Like just, let her slide on through, because she's not going to, and we did this painting and I loved it. Like it was so relaxing and I loved it and it was like, wow, you have that old message that you suck at art, but that's, and that's the only message you're hearing when there are a lot of messages potentially there.

I know I'm not alone in that thought, because I've heard it a thousand times, but speak to all of that. Totally.

Beryl: That's a big question, but we actually have in our company. My business is called momtography Moms and photography blended together. And I hear this a lot. Because of some of the things that I said before oh, I don't feel creative or the creative things I used to do. I can't find time to do as a mom.

And so creativity just feels hard. And I don't know if you're a Liz Gilbert follower. I love the book big magic. And so a lot of our methodologies at momtographer. Yeah. We're inspired by her work. And

Nancy: I have to say briefly to interrupt you quickly. It's so funny. I did not like that book initially because I was like, oh, this is too Woo, woo. The idea that the creative ideas out there and at finds you blah, blah, blah. But I swear to God. Writing my book was a big magic thing. That was downloaded to me from someplace else. Like I know, like I I'm a believer in that concept since I wrote my book, because it totally was.

Beryl: So I have some thoughts about that.

Okay. The first thought I want to I'll share at least share a methodology, and then I'll share my thought on your book and how it connects to high functioning anxiety, because. The first piece of our kind of creative coaching methodology at momtographer is to get curious. And what I loved from big magic is that was Gilbert said, if you're having trouble anchoring into your creativity to think of it as curiosity, instead of creativity.

Yeah, and that's not a direct quote, but that's just my interpretation of it, but I know she uses the word curiosity, and I was like, I love that for every mom that is struggling to be creative or anchor into that. If you ask, what are you curious about today? Usually a mom can come up with an answer that we work with like pretty quickly. I want to take a picture of my kid, or I want to take a picture of the flowers or I'm just curious about getting the dishes done in my sink. Like sometimes it has nothing to do with the creative experience. And what I realized for me, because I had some similar reactions to you about that.

Like the woo-woo sides of big magic, even though I do tend to go down the woo-woo path a little bit, but, waiting for that train to come through and you got to catch it before it runs away. Some of that is true. And some of it is just, another piece of our methodology is consistency.

Sometimes you just got to sit down and do it, but at some point, if you are creative and writing is a creative experience. And I have found in writing some of our programs or in, yeah, there are those kinds of just big magic type modes. Where I'm like, oh, that thing I just said to a coaching client, I don't know where it came from.

It came from somewhere else, but it was the right thing to say in that moment. And it was because I let my guard down and let my anxiety I just in the words of Elsa, let it go little bit. Yeah. And I think sometimes we can't listen to our inner voice and our inner intuition, when our levels of high-functioning anxiety are constantly like, what are people going to think of this or that when that inner critic is getting really loud, it's harder for those things to get in.

I tried to find strategies for myself and for our students to get around some of those perfectionistic tendencies.

Nancy: Okay. Because there's, I think the idea of a couple of things, I like the idea of the consistency in the sense of. But what bugged me about the Elizabeth Gilbert was like, it was just seemed like obviously the title of the book is big magic, but it seemed like I could sit down and get an idea and just write it.

And it would be amazing, but it, that consistency piece, the curiosity piece and the consistency piece are also because that those were big factors in writing my book. Like that I had been writing for years that I had a lot of curiosity about the subject that it wasn't just like all of a sudden, I just woke up and got inspired to write something about chemistry.

When I hadn't done anything in chemistry ever, it was, this is something that inspires me. Let me write about it. Something I'm curious about, let me write about it. So I like that idea because that's what lets your guard down. Totally those two steps.

Beryl: other two, because it's our creative coaching methodology is four CS.

So curiosity is that first one. And then we talk about commitment, curious, and you write all those ideas down. What are you curious about? Which one are you willing to commit to? Because sometimes our moms come forward and the camera's the way in, but they're like, wait, what really? What I want to be doing creatively?

This, I want to build this business, or I want to write this book or I want to do this other thing. That was a surprising thing for me, because I started my business out of this traumatic experience and how photography helped me heal from it. And I think I was surprised. I was like, no, I'm a photography teacher, but then all these women would come in and they pick up their camera and go, but no, wait, there's these other creative things that I love to do.

And so I think that commitment piece. Especially, when you have high functioning anxiety, your head just swirls with ideas, like the overthinking is insane. And so I'm like, all right, you got to pluck one of those out of your brain and just try it, let it be an experiment.

Nancy: It's hardest part.

Giving yourself that permission.

Beryl: I know. I say it like it's so easy. Let it be an experiment. Yeah. Easier said than done. So it's curiosity, commitment, and then connection. How are you going to connect to that idea? Because you can't get to a place of being consistent until you figure out how you're going to connect it.

Yeah. So I'm sure for you writing your book, it was like, do you need a specific place to write your book? I know when I've written my online courses, I had the one coffee shop where it was like a ritual. What was my ritual? I would go to the coffee shop when my daughter was napping and I would write there, and that turned into a habit that I could do consistently.

Yeah, I totally agree. Yeah, that brings the methodology full circle. Those are the four c’s that we go over

Nancy: So curiosity, commitment, connection. Consistency. Nice. I like that because it was funny that the commitment piece and the experiment piece, I wanted to say I always trying to find the perfect, even though I say there is no perfect system, I'm still trying to find the perfect organizational system constantly.

It's like my personal quest. And finally somebody said to me, pick one and stick to it. Pick one instructor for a year. And I was like, whoa, like that seemed, that's a big commitment. And so I decided to pick one in, but what it opened up my mind to was like, there is no right answer here. All there. It's not like I'm constantly afraid to pick one.

Because I might pick the wrong one. That's what I get stuck in. But then I'm like, you will know what's the wrong one until you. Commit to it and do it for a while. Yeah. So I gave myself, so I picked, I was, I picked us to do paper and I gave myself six months, and then I, and I've been tweaking it as I go.

And, it's been hit or miss, but the, that was the first time when somebody said to me that's why, like how you have commitment and it's an experiment that I can say, okay, every day I'm going to show up and, photograph blah. But that's my commitment and it doesn't matter if there's no right way.

Beryl: I have this story from our mom tography community when I started teaching and there's a lot floating around and photography spaces of do a 365 project, which is taking a photo a day for a tire year or do a project 52, or here are these photo prompts for the month that you should photograph.

I didn't want to do those in my head. For a very long time, like it just made my skin crawl and I started to ask myself why it was totally because of my high functioning anxiety. I would start a 365 project and then I'd miss a day and I beat myself up for missing a day. How am I going to make this day up?

How can this project still be perfect? It's not perfect anymore. So I finally, then actually my husband got in on it. He's if you can't do it, I'll do it. So he did a 365 project when our daughter was a year old and he actually finished, he did all 365 days with his phone. Look, I did it. I'm like great.

Nancy: And he didn't miss a day. He did it perfectly.

Beryl: He probably, he doesn't, he has other stuff, but he doesn't have necessarily high functioning anxiety. He falls under another flavor of anxiety. But he probably missed the day, but didn’t care. He just took a picture the next morning or made up for it and didn't beat himself up over it.

But I finally finished one. I was trying to do it like my big fancy professional DSLR camera. I decided to do one with my phone because my phone was always with me. The pressure was taken off immensely. Oh, I can take imperfect photos and still finish this. But like any photo project always felt very constrictive to me.

I don't even know if that's a word constricting. Just because I was like, oh, like it triggered all of them. Perfectionistic piece. Now I have to do this and I'm going to fail if I don't do it the right way. But we have noticed that like our community does need motivation. I've let go of some of my like, oh, I hate photo projects. They're terrible. We do them more now. At momtographer, but we also share, because we have a lot of creatives have high-functioning anxiety, even if they don't know, they have it I'm sure that they exist and would self-identify. And we've shown other ways to embrace photo projects, which is choose a subject you're interested in and see how many different ways you can photograph that subject.

Maybe like you set the parameters, are you going to do it daily? Are you going to do it weekly and do it until it doesn't feel that anymore? And then switch to something else?. I took 30 days. Photos, 30 ish days of photos of like my morning cup of coffee. I called it the, my daily cup project and I was like, I don't know what I'm going to do with these, it was fun.

Because I would collect mugs from different places or I'd take photos while I was traveling and eating or drinking a cup of coffee at a restaurant. I took a picture of my smoothie one day, because I didn't have coffee and I did it until I was like, okay, I'm done. Like this doesn't feel inspiring anymore.

I'm not curious about this anymore. And I got to be in control and call the shots around the project.

Nancy: Yeah, that's really cool. Yeah, there's a woman. I follow on Instagram for no reason. But every morning she does a story about her coffee, about the French press. And it's just her doing the French press and pouring the coffee and I watch it every morning.

And she said that she gets so many comments from people that are just like, I enjoy seeing this ritual. And so like when you said that about the coffee, like that's just a cool. Ritual. Yeah. Until it's not. And then you stopped doing it.

Beryl: And I did that, the project when my daughter got older. Because I realized like the things that inspired me about photography in the beginning and becoming a mom and the changes of like your child in those first many years of their upbringing, I was like, oh, there's no more firsts.

And she's at school all day. What am I photographing now? And so I needed to find something just to keep me inspired and motivated to shoot. And that was how that project came to be. It was through that coaching process of what am I curious about right now?

Nancy: And is that just, was that just on your phone or was that with the camera?

Beryl: It was probably a little bit of. Okay. Yeah, I think I just allowed it to be what it needed to be. I know when I was traveling, I didn't really take my big camera with me but I'm sure some days at home, I took photos with the DSLR also.

Nancy: Yeah, that's cool. What so here's a weird question for you because I know you do photography, but one of my big things, that one reason I'm not more creative or do creative projects is because my Monger will tell me it's impractical. What are we going to do with that? Where are we going to put it? Ooh, that's a big one. And so it is, I know for photography that isn't, but I'm just curious your take on

Beryl: Our moms struggle with that too. And I think I struggled with that personally because do, I say that to myself sometimes too.

And I'm like, yeah, I'm not going to pick up my camera today because. Yeah. What is this? What's the purpose?

Nancy: Yeah.

Beryl: We talk a lot about setting an intention for your photography or for your creativity in our community. And that intention can be as big. I want to get good at taking pictures because I want to be able to take my baby's newborn photo and hang it up on a big canvas on my wall.

That was my like initial big personal goal. I want to have a baby. I want to take that photo of myself and I want to not have to hire a newborn photographer essentially. And the moms that are really like interested in photography, that's a lot of their main motivation in the beginning, but that motivation can also be, I just want this snapshot so I can send it to the ground.

Or, and I think that intention becomes very important. I want to take these photos today because I know I feel good and I feel creative and I feel like I've unlocked something bigger inside of me when I do it. And sometimes we will. Give our students, the guidance of go on a photo walk today, take whatever camera you want to take, whatever pictures inspire you and then come home and delete them.

Like the magic of digital photography is that you don't have to do anything right. You haven't wasted any money on film. So there doesn't have to be a purpose. And I see a lot of parents especially struggle with that. Because, the magic of digital photography is that we can take photos upon photos, but then you have 30,000 photos sitting on your phone or on your computer.

And it's what do I do with these? I resisted it. Printing photo books for a long time because of my mom, they're going you have to do this perfectly. You have to use all the photos. How are you going to use them? I didn't have the struggles. Some of our community will come forward and say, I don't even want to open this folder because how can I delete photos of my kids.

Nancy: OH, wow. Yeah.

Beryl: There's a lot of guilt and anxiety and throwing photos away. And we've tried to take on the Marie Kondo methodology of photo spark. Do you really need, do you really need 15 photos of your child making similar poses? No. Like it's okay to delete those, right?

Yeah. Yeah. I don't know that there's like a right answer, but I know that setting a personal intention helps.

Nancy: Yeah. That makes sense. Because I think you, because that's what my husband will say. We don't need another painting hanging on the wall.

That's just crappy. My office is covered with paintings that he's done. That I just think are amazing. Because I think just doing the creativity is amazing. But I, but the intention, and when I think about me sitting there doing that painting that I loved when we took that class, then I can tap into that intention oh, that was worth it.

Beryl: It's funny that you say that because I don't go to a lot of the paints. Because I'm like, where am I going to put this thing? Once I paint it, I have no idea where it will go. But there is something about the practice and the act of doing it too. And how that's yeah. And how you feel when you go do it.

Nancy: I think it expands. It's a bypass. The creativity is a bypass around all of that perfectionism and people pleasing. Like when you can get into the zone of, concentrating on taking a photo, that's interesting to you for no other reason, then that's just bypass it. It's training your brain to do it differently than it has to be perfect.

And, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, all that crap that the monger spews forth. Totally. Which is yeah. Which is awesome. Ah, this has been so cool. Thank you so much.

Beryl: I feel like you, and I could just keep going and go. I know for hours, we won't make your listeners that

Nancy: no, but I, because I just feel like we just dabbled and hit a lot of topics that I have not hit yet on the podcast, as far as parenting and the generational stuff. And then also just tapping into that creativity, which I think is such an important part, but it is helpful to talk to someone who knows how hard that is to do and who is still figuring out ways to do it.

Tell me how people can find you and what you're working on over.

Beryl: Totally. Can I issue a challenge to your listeners? That'd be fun. Okay. So we have a project it's our signature project at momtography, it's called the a hundred steps project. And this project stemmed out of my own like perfectionism and lack of motivation to go photograph.

And I was like, all right, I can get up off my couch. I can take a hundred steps. And I can find joy and appreciation and like right now and shift my perspective. And so I tell our community, go stand at your front door or wherever you can pick a starting point wherever you want it to be walk a hundred steps, find a way to make a photograph in the place that you're standing.

Wow. Yeah, because it, you have that like, all right, I have the guidelines, it's a hundred steps, to do that. But I think it also forces you to think creatively and to get out of your head and you don't have to do anything with that photo besides just we would love to see it. So if you go find us on Instagram, it's momtography CEO.

That's how you can follow me on Instagram when you can tag me and hashtag momtography and then our website is momtography.club.

Nancy: Awesome. I really like that. Because like you said, it has rules. And a challenge. Like it's a mix of both.

Beryl: Yeah. So hopefully it'll help some of your listeners go for your listeners that are moms.

It's really fun to do with your kids too. If you can get them to go with you. Oh yeah.

Nancy: That's a great idea. I love that. Thank you for just that. I'm going to do that. When we hang up on my way down to get the laundry, I'm going my steps and see where I left

Beryl: it.

Nancy: Awesome. Okay. We will link to it, that stuff in the show notes, we're also going to link to the book that you mentioned about the ADHD that changed everything for you. And thank you for taking the time to do this. Thanks for having me.

For the record, I did practice the 100 hundred step challenge and have practiced it multiple times since so often I hear these challenges, but I never put them into practice, but I did.

As soon as I hung up from our interview, I tried it and I've done it a few times when I've been stuck or feeling particularly Mongery, it's a fun way to get out of your head. See the world differently. I challenge you to try it.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 133: The Value of Self-Loyalty

In today’s episode, I talk about how to get off that hamster wheel of stress and build more self-loyalty in your life.

Devoted, constant, and committed – all my clients would list loyalty as one of their highest values—

loyalty to their mothers, fathers, spouses, kids, friends, work, and the world in general.

They are the listeners, supporters, lovers, givers, cheerleaders, and fans. They are the caregivers for their aging parents. They are the backbone of their families, relationships, and workplaces.

The dark side of this loyalty to others is the exhaustion, the never-ending to-do list, the never feeling good enough, whole enough, satisfied enough. 

The anxiety.

All this month, we are exploring the unique values of someone with High Functioning Anxiety and how they silently struggle with these values. 

Last week we talked with Brittany Berger about anxiety and productivity. This week I am talking about how those of us with HFA value loyalty.  

Here is the irony: some of the kindest, gentlest, giving people in the world never quite feel kind, gentle, or giving enough.

Want to know why?

They are so busy devoting themselves to make sure their family and friends are heard, supported, and cared for they bypass themselves.

They have been trained to care for everyone else but themselves. 

This is something I have struggled with personally. I love caring for people. I pride myself on my loyalty, I love being there for those closest to me, and I know it has come at a price—a price of exhaustion and stress. 

Today I want to talk about how to get off that hamster wheel of stress.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When we don't have loyalty to ourselves we are constantly looking outside of ourselves for direction.

• How the Monger lies to us by saying “take care of everyone else and then you will have peace.”

• How we can stretch our loyalty to include ourselves and not just others.

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

A pair of Zen monks, a master, and his student went out on a journey to visit another convent. As monks do, they walked much and spoke little. On the third day of their journey, the two came to a fast-flowing river and saw that there was a young woman standing there in a beautiful dress. She stood there looking very cross and impatient.

The student noticed the woman said nothing and walked. "Please," she begged the Master, who was clearly the one in charge. "Would you carry me across this river? I'm on my way to my loved one, and I don't want to ruin this dress. It's the best one I have." The student was shocked at her audacity, after all, his Master was a holy man, and her touch would be unclean, but before he could say anything and to his surprise, his Master agreed to carry the woman.

The Master quickly picked her up, put her on his back, transported her across the water, and put her down on the other side. She didn't thank the old monk, she just shoved him out of the way. And the two monks continued to walk in silence day after day until finally, on the third day, the student could no longer hold his tongue master.

He said, "Why did you carry that woman across the river?" His Master looked at him with a slight smile and said, "You have learned much, but you still lack some wisdom. My student, that woman weighed on my back for three minutes and then I was done. But she has been weighing on your mind for three days."

You're listening to the Happier Approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Usually, the lesson of the story is you need to put it down, stop worrying, let it go. Mind your business.

We walk away from the story thinking, yes, I should let it go. This is one of those stories we hear all the time that makes us think and pause and beat ourselves up because we know we are the student monk. We tell ourselves we need to do a differently, stop ruminating and let things go. Oh, yes. If only it were that easy.

When I hear this story, I'm curious about the older monk, why did he choose to pick up the woman and why was he able to let her anger and unappreciation go so easily. Why was he able to let it go? This month, we're exploring the unique values as someone with high functioning anxiety. Last week, we talked with Brittany Berger about the value of productivity.

And this week I'm talking about the value of loyalty. Loyalty means devoted, constant, and committed. Almost all of my clients put loyalty as a value. Loyal to a fault, one could say loyalty to their mothers, fathers, spouses, kids, friends, work, and the world. They are the caregivers for their aging parents.

They're the listener supporters, lovers, givers, cheerleaders fans, head down, get the job done, workers. They are the backbone of their families, relationships, and workplace. They ooze loyalty to everyone around them. They're strong, quiet kind. Get the job done. Individuals. The dark side of this loyalty, the shadow side of this devotion to others, is the exhaustion.

The never-ending to-do list, the never feeling good, whole enough, satisfied enough. The anxiety there, and the Monger runs the show. She is loud and proud, telling them all the ways they miss the target. All the ways they should have been more loyal, more kind, more giving it is ironic. Here's some of the kindest gentlest giving people in the world, and yet they never quite feel kind enough gentle enough or giving enough, want to know why?

Loyalty to self. They're so busy devoting themselves to make sure their family and friends are heard, supported, and cared for they bypass themselves. They've been trained to care for everyone else, but themselves. And when they reach their forties and fifties and their kids are older and need less care and their parents are older and need more care. They see that there is no break. There is no time for me coming down the line.

There has to be a different way because they take care of everyone else, Kool-Aid it isn't working anymore. This is something I have struggled with personally. I love caring for people. I pride myself on my loyalty.

I love being there for those closest to me. And I know it has come at a price, a price of exhaustion and stress, a constant feeling like I'm on a hamster wheel, just one rotation away from people. When we don't have loyalty to ourselves, we're constantly looking outside of ourselves for direction. We check in with everyone else to the detriment of ourselves.

We listen to the Monger, lie of, take care of everyone else, and then you'll have peace. So going back to the story of the monks who is more loyal, the Master or the student on one hand, you can say the young monk, he's more loyal. He's loyal to his oath, recognizing to touch a woman goes against his oath.

He's loyal to his teacher, loyal to a fault. One might say, he's so loyal he's fighting the fight for his Master. He's spinning out and full of negativity out of a sense of right and wrong, but also a sense of loyalty. It has been established that the student is overstepping, but it is not only because he is a silly, negative, busy body.

It is because his loyalty is out of bounds. He has too much loyalty to others. Now let's answer the question of who's more loyal and say, it's the older monk. The older monk is loyal to the woman. He risks his vows to help her. And she is super unappreciative. He's loyal to others and gets nothing for it.

But you know what he does have loyalty to? Himself. And that is why he doesn't get caught up in the spinning and negativity. He trusts that he wanted to help the woman no matter what, not because it was the right thing to do. Not because she would fall all over him with adoration, but because he saw a person who needed help and he decided to help her, he was loyal to his values and principles.

So he didn't need the adoration and appreciation from the lady. He could let it go because he was making the decision from his own inner loyalty. The tagline for my business is to be as loyal to yourself as you are to others because building self-loyalty decreases anxiety. When I trust my values and principles and make decisions from that place, the self-doubt rumination and hustling step aside because I'm loyal to myself.

We spend so much of our time being the student, looking to others for answers, the vows say we can't touch women, living in black and white thinking, when helped people should be appreciative. We forget to practice the gift of the older monk discernment to check in with ourselves and ask, what do I want here?

What is most important to me? What was most important to the older monk was helping a woman in distress. Period. So it didn't matter what her response was or that he was going against his will. He could respond to this particular situation and make a decision for himself.

In working with my clients via Voxer, they check in with me a couple of times a week via the app. Frequently they're calling to talk about their anxiety, and inevitably they will ask, is this okay? Am I doing it right? What do you think I should be doing? My role is to discern when they need to hear. Yes, that is right. And when they need to hear well, what do you think? What is your self loyalty meter saying? For some of my clients, this is the first time they've ever asked themselves, what do I think? They've spent their time always looking outside of themselves because of all those people they're loyal to they know so much better.

So, yes, we need to stop ruminating, spinning out obsessing and over-performing, but underneath all that anxiety is a need for self loyalty and need to turn that strong value of loyalty back to ourselves.

The good thing is we know how to be loyal. We're great at being loyal. Now it's about stretching that loyalty to include ourselves and not just others.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 132: Working Brighter In The Hustle Culture

In today’s episode, I am talking with Brittany Berger, the founder of Work Brighter, a digital media company. Brittany has raised a one-woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction to it.

Let me check Instagram one more time. 

Go Go Go is addicting. 

During this social distancing time, I keep hearing people say that we can finally stop hustling and use this time to get in touch with ourselves. The problem with that thinking is it implies that hustling is something that was forced upon us. 

But in reality, hustling is something we choose to do as a coping mechanism against our uncomfortable feelings of sadness, grief, anger, doubt, and uncertainty. 

For those of us with High Functioning Anxiety, these mechanisms can lead to even greater levels of anxiety. We all rail against hustle culture while at the same time actively embracing it. This coping mechanism has become a valued cultural norm to the point where we even glorifying it. 

So what would it be like to stop embracing the hustle culture altogether?

My guest today has raised a one-woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction to it. Brittany Berger is the founder of Work Brighter, a digital media company that helps productive unicorns go beyond working smarter to a version of productivity that makes room for “unproductive” things like rest, self-care, and fun. 

She started Work Brighter after 5 years running content marketing in high-stress startups that prioritized hustle, growth, and scaling over self-care and mental health. Now that she’s changed her own mindset, she spends her time helping other high achievers define balance for themselves, advocating for mental health awareness, and dancing...always dancing.

That Brittany walks her talk, which is one reason this interview is so amazing. She believed the hustle culture lie with all of her being and shares not only her burnout story but what she has created and the values she lives by now. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Brittany’s transformational story of burnout with all the nitty-gritty details

• What self-care really looks like

• Why it is so hard to unhook that belief that we can rest only when we have earned it

• Practical tips for when your to-do list is 500 things long and your boss is breathing down your throat

• How to get out of the cycle of pushing during the week and collapsing on the weekend

Resources mentioned:

• Work Brighter

• Instagram @workbrighter

• Twitter @workbrighterco

• Book recommendation: Rest: Why you Get More Done When you Work Less

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Brittany: Working smarter and the traditional world of productivity and hustle culture. It was all very black and white and life is not black and white. And so we needed to work brighter instead,

Nancy: Go go go is addicting. During the social distancing time the one thing I keep hearing is we can finally stop hustling and get in touch with ourselves.

The problem with that thinking is it implies that hustling is something that is forced upon you. But in reality, hustling is something we choose to do as a coping mechanism against our own uncomfortable feelings, sadness, grief, anger, doubt, uncertainty. For those of us, with high functioning anxiety, those feelings can lead to anxiety.

So we hustle in order to deal with our anxiety and feel more comfortable. And this coping mechanism that we all do has become a valued cultural norm. We all rail against hustle culture while at the same time actively embracing it? No, I would actually say it's more accurate to say glorifying it. So what would it be like to stop glorifying it all together?

And that is what my guest has done. Brittany Berger has raised a one woman battle against hustle culture and her addiction.

Your listing to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane.

Brittany Berger is the founder of work, brighter.co a digital media company that helps productive unicorns go beyond working smarter to a version of productivity that makes room for unproductive things like rest self-care and fun. Brittany started work brighter after five years running content marketing in high stress startups that prioritized hustle growth and scaling over self care and mental health.

Now that she's changed her own mindset. She spends her time helping other high achievers define balance for themselves. Advocating for mental health awareness and dancing, always dancing. Brittany walks her talk, which is one reason this interview is so amazing. She believed the hustle culture lie with all of her being and shares, not only her burnout story, but what she has created and the values she lives by now.

Brittany and I talk about her story of burn out Not just the transformational story, but the nitty-gritty details. What self care really means why it is so hard to unhook that belief that we can rest only when we've earned it. Practical tips for when your to-do list is 500 things long, and your boss is breathing down your throat and how to get out of the push during the week collapse during the weekend cycle.

Brittany. I am so excited to have you here. Thanks for joining us.

Brittany Thanks for having me.

Nancy: I'm really intrigued to hear your story. And so we're just going to jump right into that. So tell me about the day you realized you were burnt out.

Brittany: Oh, wow. I guess it was less of a day and more a slow burn where it was months of other people telling me I was burnt out and it took a while for me to believe them.

But I think it was a period from like November, 2016 to March, 2017. And I had been going through burnout for a while all of my chronic illnesses were flaring because of it. And I was hospitalized while I was away at a business trip in November because of the combination of just everything.

And it was, I was supposed to be at a conference, so I missed the whole conference and was in the hospital instead. And I was alone in a strange city. And so that was like a little bit of a wake up call for me that I was doing too much. I didn't really know what to do about it. But then by March, I realized that a big reason that I was so burnt out was because of how much I was working.

And I kept trying to work through the burnout. And by March I decided that cannot work. And I decided that I would leave my full-time job and take a little bit of what I call a Self care sabbatical and take some time just focusing on getting healthy and letting my business's passive income stuff, like happened in the background.

And then when I felt better, I went back to the business.

Nancy: So the hospital thing that was in November, and then you say it was another five months before you actually had the real, come to Jesus. Have I got to make some changes.

Brittany: Yeah, I did not figure it out quickly. I was so stubborn and I think a big part of it was my family had started to really get concerned.

There was a weekend around March where my sister came up and came up to visit from where she lived and she just got real with me about how much my health was scaring my parents. And so I just really started realizing that it wasn't just me, that the burnout was impacting. And I think it was it says a lot about my mindset at the time that doing it for myself, wasn't enough to make me actually do it.

But realizing that my, my partner, my parents, my sister, it was impacting them a lot too. I was like, all right, I shouldn’t do this to them either.

Nancy: So if someone's listening and they're they are interested like, oh wait, I think I might be where you were in that November to March period. What were some of the symptoms, what was going on in your head, as you were trying to push through, what were you telling yourself?

Brittany: I was just constantly telling myself that I wasn't doing enough and that despite how I felt and how broken and exhausted I was I couldn't rest until I finished. So I really looked at rest and just taking time away from my business and earning a break. I looked at it as something that had to be like earned and I couldn't succeed until I did that, but then I kept changing the bar for success.

And so it just never happened.

Nancy: Okay, so you recognized this is too much and then, or I'm burnout, but then it was kind of like, but once I get there, wherever there is, then I can stop and it'll be okay.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I, at the time I was working full time and I had both a blog with an email, with a course, with a paid course, as well as a freelance writing business.

So I essentially had a day job and two sides on top of the chronic illness. And so I just, I was telling myself that I needed to make enough money to pay all these medical expenses of dealing with burnout. And so I kept telling myself that, once I make this much money, I will work less hard, but then.

Working that hard would put me in the hospital and I would get another medical bill. And so then the amount of money that I needed to get up this endless cycle. And in between November and March, I also realized I would need so much less money that this thing that I'm working towards, if I just. I stopped for a while, but the reason I was so sick and had all these medical bills was because of how much I was working.

And so I realized that they were feeding into each other.

Nancy: So the burnout was causing the chronic illnesses to flare more.

Brittany: Exactly. Exactly. I like I have had inflammatory bowel disease, my whole life. And it had never been like a huge problem, except for a month at a time, it had never been a two year long problem before, but because I was never letting myself rest, it never went away.

Nancy: Yeah. It constantly fascinates me how our bodies give us signals and we just ignore them..

Brittany: Yeah Oh, I have a very long history of that. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. me too! It's sad to say that it's a skill because not a good skill, but

Brittany: yeah, it all comes down. I think we've all heard that phrase pain is weakness, leaving the body.

I think that phrase is really damaging. Like I grew up as a dancer and we heard that a lot and I really internalized it. And then eventually dancing on an ankle with two completely torn ligaments. My foot was literally connected to my leg by a thread. And I was ignoring the pain because I was saying that it would make me stronger and that it was weakness leaving my body.

That's so messed up. Yeah.

Nancy: our ego gets in the way, or we get addicted to the push, to the hustle, to the pain

Brittany: Like something to be glorified. It is a sign from our bodies.

Nancy: Yeah. I love that. Okay. So one phrase you have self care is my side hustle. I love that. And, self care gets so bastardized in our world. Tell me about what your definition of self-care is. What does that look like to you?

Brittany: To me, it is very non-commercial. It is not the stuff that you go out and do. It's not pampering. I like to look at self-care as kind of self-maintenance and really, yeah. Parenting and self parenting is another phrase that I've heard.

And I really liked that. And just honestly, like healthy adulting. But for me, I, when I was really in to hustle culture, I was doing nothing but working. And so for me, when I first started focusing on self-care it was things like eating breakfast. It was things like taking my meds every day. It was getting, oh God at the time, five to six hours of sleep, because I wasn't even getting that much before then.

Yeah, I was living for a while off of four hours a night. I would take a nap because I can't live off 4 hours at night, but yeah. Sleeping four hours a night. And yeah, I've doubled that, which is amazing. Yeah, it was stuff like, going to bed earlier, taking my meds, eating breakfast, eating lunch.

Really like when I was at my full-time job, the only real meal or the only, or when I was in hustle culture, despite my employment situation, the only meal I ate was dinner because I would wake up and I would work until I was exhausted and then I would eat. Yeah, so I literally used to have calendar appointments set for meals, otherwise I would forget.

So it was really just that basic stuff. Going to therapy, going to my doctor's appointments. These days, it is more I've had the basics covered. And so it also includes things like journaling and going for walks and intentional TV time where I really focus on finding something that's going to improve my mood.

So I go to bed happy and not stressed out. And yeah, for me, it's just all of those little things that you can do to maintain your mood and self care level. And it's all that kind of stuff that when you're really in the cult of toxic productivity as I like to call it where you're just defining everything by work.

It's all stuff that you attempt to really ignore. And when I first was trying to change my mindset, I recognized the fact that I didn't see a ton of value in those things. And but I did see value in hustling. And so I said that's what my hustle is going to be. Self care is going to be my side hustle.

And so that was and I also had, I still, when I left my full-time job, I had some mindset issues around taking time off and essentially taking a sabbatical. And so it was a jokey way to say oh, now my full-time job is my business, but since I'm not the kind of person that can just have one job self-care is my side.

So it was, but then also it is a testament to how seriously I took it. Because side hustles are jobs and I started treating self care like a job.

Nancy: Yeah, I like that because, so one of the issues a lot of my clients have, I had a retreat last year and we were talking in the retreat about, they know there are things that they like to do that makes them start their day off.

Like journaling would be one of them. They know that helps, but it's they feel like they have to earn it or they're don't deserve it. Or, getting over the hump of getting up every morning and journaling rather than jumping into email or taking care of the kids or whatever is hard.

How did you flip that I need to earn it mentality?

Brittany: I really just tried looking at the bigger picture and I tried connecting all of the dots. So for example, one thing that made me. Really fall in love with journaling was how much easier my work felt when I was doing brain dumps of everything on my mind and getting all of the work stuff in my head out of my head.

And so I realized that could help. Another thing was like getting more sleep. I realized that I actually like. Faster and better as a writer when I get more sleep. And so I realized that it's all connected. It's not, I like to say self care, isn't something to be earned once you succeed.

It's part of the process for success. It's not like you work then. The rest is part of the work. One book that I really love and that really helped change my mindset was called Rest. Why you get more done when you work less? And it really looked at like the neuroscience of what happens to our brains when we're.

Working like four hours a day, which is the sweet spot. The author recommended of deep focused work, four hours of that versus eight hours. And it was just, it's really eye opening and like the importance of sleep and how that actually impacts your work. I really started seeing. It was part of the process and not the reward.

Nancy: Okay. I like the idea, the pulling back. So you can flop your brain to be like, this is helping me work better, which is the goal. And turning the whole thought process on its head. Yeah. In so many ways that's really what do you do when your to-do list is 50,000 things long, and you're not working for yourself. So you're working for a boss and you haven't, you're in an organization and you're just overwhelmed by, there's, there's no way you're going to get that list done.

Brittany: Prioritization and communication.

Okay. I was super bad at this at my first job. And in that job, I eventually got a new manager who recognized my overwhelm and she taught me a phrase that's really great. And she was like, you need to say this to me sometimes. It is like when someone is asking you to do something like someone, your colleague or your boss, it's just basically stating what your current priorities are and saying okay, sure I can do that. But then what should I take off my plate to make room for it?

And so it's not, rejecting so it's not like saying to a colleague, no, I can't do that. It's saying help me figure out how I can do that. Because one thing that also took me a little bit too long to realize is that like coworkers, we don't want each other overwhelmed and like your boss it's okay.

If you can't do everything your boss is throwing at you. They might not realize that they're throwing too much at you. And that was the case with me and my manager and I didn't realize that I could say no or not know, but that I could say let's talk this out. Or like how I didn't realize that because I assumed that my boss has everything perfect and figured out, but that's not the case.

None of us have everything figured out. And so she, she didn't realize that she was giving me too much. And. Saying Hey, this is difficult. Like saying sure, I could do this thing for you this morning, but you already said you wanted me to do this thing this morning. Which do you want more just making other people more aware of what's going on? Because a lot of times. I think when we're really overwhelmed, we assume none of our coworkers can help.

Because they're all overwhelmed too. And that might be the case, but we're still all, we all want to help each other. And a lot of times it's easier than we thought. For example, continuing the boss example, like maybe she did give you two things to do this morning, but that's just because she thought they'd be easy.

And when she really thinks about it, neither need to get done right now. And yeah, just open communication as much as possible. Some bosses aren't ideal and some, cultures, unfortunately, you can't be super open and honest about that stuff, but just be as open and honest about it as you can be in your situation and yeah.

Ruthless prioritization when it comes down. Yeah.

Nancy: Because that's also then, it's back to that piece of, I need to be honest with myself, this is too much, instead of being aware of when you're amping up into the hustle culture versus when you're being authentic.

Yeah. So speaking of that, tell me, I think I know what the hostile culture is, but just for the listeners, what is your definition of hustle culture?

Brittany: I tend to define. I'm actually working on like a definitive definition for my brand right now, but it's some of the key qualities I like to point out are work for the sake of work and just taking on as much as possible.

The, for the hell of it. When you're taking it off work that serves no real purpose, that's not, in pursuit of a goal you actually care about. So there's that quote, I forget who says it, but that I love but growth for the sake of growth is the ideology of a cancer. Oh, my gosh.

Nancy: That's

Brittany: awesome.

Yeah. Like a scientist. I think that said it. But it's just such a great mindset to approach work with. Because we are just taught to accumulate stuff, success, accolades money. But how much of it do we need? That's going to be a different amount for everyone, but like knowing you're enough amount.

I think that's part of the book essentially. Is like defining your enough. I really love that because yeah, it lets you figure out how much you ha what enough work is, what enough money is that you need in your life? What accolades and yeah. Milestones you really want. And so that's one quality.

Another quality is treating rest and hobbies and fun as something that you need to earn instead of something that you've deserved and that, and really something that helps you work like I've already said, rest is work and it helps you get your job done. But like play is to, I can't tell you how many great ideas I have come from.

I have had from watching TV or going to a dance class. Actually when I used to go to my dance classes, I would come out so full of inspiration that I would go for a walk around the studio neighborhood with my with a voice memo and just brain dump the, all the ideas out of my head, because I was so full of inspiration about work from that one hour dance.

And yeah. And so rest is part of the process of success. Play is part of the process. Yeah. We're not machines. We can't just work all the time.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. I love that. I love that about the cancer cell. That's really cool. Because that's a great visual to think, like why am I pushing so hard for, because I think so many times we start pushing just for the sake of pushing.

Like we don't even know what we're doing this for

Brittany: exactly, because we've just. Unintentionally opted into a contest of who can work the most

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, totally. Because something, I work a lot with my clients on is stopping the phrase I deserve. Because they'll say I deserve this vacation and I'm like, no you need the vacation.

Brittany: I do use the phrase I deserve, but as a human being, not as like you've earned it, but as human. Deserve all of these things, no matter what exactly.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. It's but it's that idea of, I get it because I've worked so hard is just not helpful.

Yeah. Okay. So here's, this is a personal question well personal for me. So one of my issues. Is, and I work with this with my clients too, but is that is I notice I get trapped in the cycle of I'll push really hard all week and then I'll crash on the weekend.

So I'll push really hard all week. And then on Friday, which is my day off, I'll spend the day like doing Netflix and playing on my video games. And it's not that intentional TV watching, as you talked about and. How do you know?, and I know I got into that habit. I noticed I got into the habit and I'm trying to break out of it.

But a lot of times I asked myself, how do I know if I'm wasting time or if I'm just being lazy or avoiding stuff.

Brittany: I think it's really just a matter of holding yourself aware. Yeah. I talk a lot about energy management. And for me, that helps because if I'm low on energy, then I need to do something to recharge my energy.

If I'm feeling energetic and I just am in the mood and I am feeling the pull to the Netflix remote anyway, but Check in with my energy and I'm like, oh, I could actually get up and do a jumping Jack right now. Then, oh, that might just be procrastination. And I might not actually need a 22 minute sit-com break.

Okay. So it's really, I think self-awareness and especially around your energy and your to-do lists for example, also, , if I am like feeling distracted or like I deserve a break or I need a break and I know. Also the one thing left on my to-do list for the day is something I don't want to do then.

Yeah. (laughter)

Nancy: Yeah. I can relate to that (laughter)

Brittany: that. Yeah. Very situational

Nancy: . Yeah, because the idea of like needing. Needing to be lazy. And I say that term lazy in the sense of open space, like having time to do a dance class or not necessarily being lazy, like laying on the couch in my pajamas, but just having time is something that I don't give myself very often.

Yeah. And I think that is unless I'm just totally exhausted and then I'm not taking advantage of it. Then you're just regrouping all the time.

Brittany: Yeah. I think another thing that helps is trying to focus on the big picture and instead of just the next week, because if I know I need to work again next week, then I'm going to be less likely to work myself to the bone this week. And so I know if I'm, if I have to work every week for the next 52 weeks I need to sustain myself. So I definitely, I look at sustainability. So I can't, I wish I remember who said this, but it was just a tweet. But it was. Every percent that you put in past 100% today is alone from your future self.

Oh, that's. Yeah. And so if I put in 150% this week, that means I can only do 50% next week. And so instead I look at it as I'm going to do my 100% this week. I'm going to use. Extra time. And instead of, I don't know, just scrolling Instagram, I am going to open the Kindle app on my phone.

One thing that I did amazingly last year was that I switched those two icons on my home screen and Instagram, and just the change that automatically happened was wild. But yeah, so I just look at it as I only have 150% this week, unless I am going to borrow from the future.

Nancy: Okay. That's a cool way of looking at it.

How long? So if you say like November of 2017 or March of 2017, you had your come to Jesus. How long did it take you to really unhook all that? I know you're still unhooking. It's an ongoing process, but until you started really seeing some.

Brittany: I would say maybe in the next like six to eight, 12 months is when I really changed a lot in my life.

So I had that realization that I needed to leave my job in, or that I needed to delete my full-time job in March since I had others. And I left in June. And I would say the first, definitely the first, at least six months of my, of I'm not working full time in house. I still very much had the same hustle, culture mindset, and I was working less and stuff like that, but I wasn't, it wasn't super okay with it and stuff like that.

And so I would say it took a lot and I was in therapy that time. I did a lot of journaling that time. And I also just started as I started seeing the results of working less, it started to become easier to believe because I could feel the results for myself

Nancy: and what were those results?

Brittany: So much more energy, so much more fun.

Like as an entrepreneur, it feels so weird to care so little about so many things I'm supposed to care about now, but I know that my business is serving me and I just feel so aligned and happy. I have a post on my blog. That's five signs the mindset work is working and it's just things I've noticed from the past year.

Like I used to walk around my house, singing all the time and then I don't really know when, but like I stopped singing. But I've started singing again like singing in the shower. I've started doing that again and it's such a little thing, but that's something that I now realize, like I had, I just, I had taken, I zapped the joy out of my life and somewhere I've gotten it back and I'm like singing and I'm dancing around the apartment, not just in class.

And I smile sometimes for no one reason and stuff like that. And it's just all this stuff. That's. Like it was so absent for so long.

Nancy: Yeah. Which I think that happens to a lot of us that we forget those things just disappear one by one little by little.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I hadn't even realized that I stopped singing or that I started again.

Until my fiancé mentioned something about how I think he thought that I stopped because we moved to New York and we just have smaller quarters and thinner walls or something. Because I used to walk around our big apartment. The concrete walls and stuff just like belting out in my horrible voice.

And so I think he thought that I stopped, like out of out of courtesy or something, but no, I was just depressed.

Nancy: Yeah. Thank God for partners, man. Because my husband will frequently point out to me. Like you don't laugh anymore. What happened to the laughter? and it's like oh yeah,

Sometimes we need someone else to point that out to us.

Brittany: Exactly. Yeah. Like exactly him and my sister were really the people in that time. That really convinced me before that March moment.

Nancy: and it's amazing how much convincing it takes. I think. Yeah. Even when the people we love the most and the closest to us are like this isn't okay.

It's harder for our, it just takes a while for us. Have that message sink in. Yep. Okay. So then I want to hear about, you mentioned energy management. Tell me more about that, how that works for you on a daily basis and how it really changed your life.

Brittany: Just totally changed the way I structure my day and they know that I have a leg up with this because I am in total control of my own schedule.

But even when I started doing energy management, when I still worked in house. So to give you a run down of what it used to look like. So, before I started paying attention to energy, I would get to work in the morning. I would immediately jump into writing long form, serious content.

I would just dive right in no warmup, no anything. Basically do that until I couldn't anymore. And then I would do the other stuff, like the admin, the communication, whatnot. I also, I would batch all of my calls on one day a week because that was like a productivity tip I read somewhere and I was very much in the place that we talked about before, where like I would work until Friday or until my day off. And then I would just crash. That was very much the cycle I would crash every night. I would come home from work, take a nap before I could even eat dinner. But then yeah, I was totally zapped.

And the changes that I made when I worked in house was I stopped writing in the mornings because I realized I am not a morning person. And while I can't change the fact that I have to be at work at nine, I don't have to do the hardest work right then I can wait until I've had some caffeine and some lunch and stuff.

So I started doing my admin in the morning. I started doing meetings in the morning because that's stuff that I didn’t need to be at my best for, like when I am, I'm really at my prime in terms of writing at 2:00 PM. And then again at 9:30 PM. And so I started protecting those hours and making sure that I could write during that time, I also stopped batching calls because I'm an introvert.

And so I realized that was burning me out. That it's much easier for me. Yeah. Spread out the calls and so what works now is that I have a, depending on the day, I just have a slot for calls every day and it's like my socializing hours. And so I paced myself and so it's still like time blocked.

It's still the same block of time almost every day. And it's still I know it in advance, so it's still very organized and it brings all of the benefits that batching calls brings, but it doesn't burn out my energy. Zap my will to talk. And another thing that I did was I like I was side hustling and I had always felt the pull to try to wake up early and work on my business in the morning before I went to my day job.

Since that's the common advice. Yeah. But again, energy management. I identified that I was really awake. Like I got really hyper right before I go to bed. And so from 9:30 to 1130, I would make my business hours. And so, I stopped trying to fit that work in before my day job. And then when I got home from work, I wouldn't try to dive into my side hustle right away.

I would wait until my prime hour and sometimes Sleep problems. And so sometimes I would even take a nap after work instead of going to bed earlier so that I could make sure to be awake during the energy hours. And I would still get the same amount of sleep, but I was awake when I knew I was great at writing.

And since that was my main job,

Nancy: because I love in your, before we hit record, I was talking about how much I love your blog. You have to go check out workbrighter.co.

Nancy: She has some amazing blogs and YouTube videos. The whole thing is fabulous.

And I want to talk about your clubhouse here in a little bit, but you take on that idea of the 5:00 AM, whatever they have a name for it, that everyone feels like this is what

Brittany: the 5 AM club, the miracle morning and all of that stuff.

Nancy: Yeah. Which was so I just love that you took that on because so many clients will say to me, I read that the major executives get up at 5:00 AM and do stuff. And I'm like, not if you're not a 5:00 AM person.

Brittany: Yeah. Oh my God, I'm being targeted with a New York times article right now, like in Facebook ads. And it's how to become a morning person, even if you're not.

And it makes me so angry because I am like, I'm not saying that mornings are bad or we shouldn't be in the mornings. I am saying mornings are bad for me personally. I'm saying if you're a morning person own it. If you're a night owl own it, if you're a night owl, don't try to become a morning person.

And I hate that. I keep getting retargeted with that article. But yeah. I used to not be able to set my own work hours to the extreme. And so how I adapted the energy to that was like, okay, I had to be at work at eight, but I wasn't going to do the hard work then.

And now what that looks is I am going to stay up later and sleep later. Like right now I sleep until 9:30 or 10 most days, because I know that means I can stay up later and work more and it's not yeah, It just feels so much more relaxed this way, but yeah. Instead of trying to become a morning person or a whatever, I'm all about just becoming very comfortable with what you are and owning it and leveraging it.

Nancy: I love that. So the whole thing with energy management is just being really intentional about your personal energy. And not buying into oh, I should be. Or this is what they do.

Brittany: Exactly. I like to call energy management, a filter for all of the other productivity advice out there, because the biggest problem with all of the productivity advice out there, isn't that it’s wrong. It's that it's given as a one size fits all. This always works thing when productivity is so personal. And so energy management kind of gives you a filter to run other tips. For example, the batching calls piece of advice. I can run that through my little energy management filter and say okay, that I can't batch a whole day of calls, but I can do two calls in the same hour on one day or something like that, if that fits into my book.

And so it just helps you figure out which of the hacks and quick tips out there. Will actually work for you to apply them.

Nancy: Yeah. Because a lot of my clients and I'm guilty of this too. I notice whenever, like even yesterday I had something that it's something on my calendar that I don't really want, that I'm struggling with right now.

And and so I'm like, oh, I need to develop a new system. Like what I need a new system. If I had a new system, this wouldn't be so painful. And then they go into this whole thing of looking for a new system. And now I know I don't go down that rabbit hole because I recognize, okay, new system is a red flag.

And that means, you don't want to be doing something, but all the time, my clients will say to me, oh, I just need a new system. And because there's so much freaking advice out there on here's the perfect system, but none of it is saying. Pay attention to your own energy. Like you can find a new system, but it may not work for you.

Yeah.

Brittany: Most of the time you need to improve what you have because you are called to it for a reason and it just needs some optimization.

Nancy: So that continually coming back to yourself and running everything through yourself, which is so hard when people have been focused externally on hustle culture, it's like a whole new way of being.

Brittany: Yeah. It's almost like a self-awareness exercise too. I feel like it makes you a lot more self-aware about the way you work.

Nancy: So right now, what would you say are the self-care things you do that are just like set in stone? These are. Not get non-negotiables. I

Brittany: recently learned how important my sad lamp is.

I live in Manhattan. It is winter. We are on the third floor in a neighborhood of much taller building. So no natural light comes into the apartment. And yeah, I've had this sad lamp for a while and I use it in the winter and. Super great with the routine of it until recently. And then I dropped it and I hadn't noticed that I stopped using it.

It was just like, I was cleaning one day and I moved it to clean off the table and I didn't put it back and that broke the habit. And I didn't realize until I was like, why is my sleep schedule? So off, I was like waking. I was waking up at four, 5:00 AM and then being exhausted by 11:00 AM. I was taking like two naps a day and my body just would not stay asleep no matter what time I went to bed for more than five hours at a time.

So if. If I started planning around waking up at 5:00 AM and going to bed earlier, it would still just wake up after five hours. There was one day that I woke up at 3:00 AM, because I went to bed earlier. And I realized it's because I hadn't been using the lamp. And so I really give it credit for helping regulate my sleep.

And when I'm not getting a lot of sunlight right now. So I recently learned how important that is. Other crucial things are. Journaling. I do so much of it these days in a bullet journal for me, and that's just, I love the bullet journal method. Another habit is therapy. I know it's not accessible for everyone.

But if it is it's so great. One thing that I'm trying to be better about this year is not waiting until I need to. I talk to my therapist to talk to my therapist. Standing weekly talk. And that has been great so far because it's I get proactive about it and I'm like, all right, what can I talk to her about this week instead of just, and so I'm able to treat things before they become, talk to things talk with her about things before they become like dire emergencies, instead of just having the dire emergency.

Nancy: That's very common.

Brittany: Netflix is so important. Like I said, intentional TV time is everything. I totally get that TV can be a big time waste, but it has gotten such a bad reputation and productivity. It's it can be so great. Like I actually, I like to say like natural Pomodoros. So like for example, a lot of times I use a 22, like the modern nowadays.

A 30 minute sitcom block with like commercials taken out is about 22 minutes. That is if you've been working for two to three hours, that is a great sized break and you can turn it off the autoplay on Netflix so that it doesn't automatically go to the next step. That is important. Yeah. It is an important part of this.

You have to turn off the autoplay vivo, but yeah, once you do. Great. It's I just, I like it's become a routine where like I finished up a big chunk of work at my desk. I pick one episode and I break for that long and then I get back to work. And so I kind of work in these cycles of two hours of work, 22 minutes and TV, and it's making sure and not just turning on the TV to whatever channels on yeah.

Actually picking something out that makes me happy. I highly recommend The Good Place or Parks and Rec or Brooklyn Nine Nine or Schitt's Creek.

Nancy: That's awesome. I've even gone back recently and started watching the golden girls. Yeah. Just talk about pull you out of here. Like just love them so much.

It's just, it's such a great and I, because I can remember, I love that you said that about Netflix because it does get such a bad rap. And I can remember years ago I was at a conference with Ilanya, Vanzant she used to be a big guru years ago and she said her favorite thing to do was to come home, take her bra off, lay in the middle of her bed and watch Law and Order

Because there was a beginning, a middle and an end, they always caught the bad guy. It was just like so awesome. And she would just watch it episode of that and just feel great. And I was like, thank you, for sure sharing that it wasn't, that you were sitting in meditating and being Zen, like in the middle of your bed, like you were a human being who is this is how I detress.

And I think that we need to be talking about how to do that intentionally.

Brittany: Exactly. Like I am so intentional with the TV shows I watch too. I do not just turn on any channel. I cut out like all or all like suspense shows, like I used to watch Law and Order, but I realized that for me, it wasn’t making me very nice, especially like living in New York, walking right behind me.

That is not for me. Sitcoms. I almost only watch sitcoms now and it's so great because it's just like a lot. And especially like picking out the, your favorite episodes and like the laugh out loud ones and it's just such a great way to de stress.

Nancy: That's awesome. Okay. So you, and so work brighter came out as a response to this burnout.

Brittany: Yeah, I originally, the newsletter was honestly originally called work smarter for a few months. And then I was like, I am too obsessed with working smarter. We are all obsessed with working smarter is not the answer we all thought it would. And I just got very sick of that phrase and it started feeling like working brighter or working smarter and the traditional world of productivity and hustle culture.

It was all very black and white and life is not black. And yeah. And so we needed to work brighter. Instead. I love that it started as just like a personal mantra for me that I would tell myself. And then I ended up like customizing notebooks and putting it on my whiteboard and stuff like that. And yeah.

It became very internalized and then it became so internalized that I was talking about it, like on Instagram or something, like my whiteboard would show up and people would be like, oh, I like the sound of that. And so eventually I changed the newsletter name and it snowballed.

Nancy: Wow.

That's awesome. So what's the work brighter clubhouse

Brittany: The Clubhouse is my self care community. It is where I like to say people get support for redefining their relationships with productivity work and breasts. And energy management is a really core part of it. I have a lot of courses about how to hone different habits and self-care practices.

For example, there's just a general habit building course, there's a journaling workshop coming this month and stuff like that. Yeah. So just these workshops and I provide tools for everything. So there's an energy management tracker, there's journaling prompts and, but more important than the resources.

There's the there's the actual community and accountability. I like to say it's the place where we will tell you to take a break and when to take a break. Yeah, I just actually it's I like to say the doors are closed to, for home renovations right now, but they'll be opening back up later in the spring with some new features.

Nancy: Okay. Cool. So it's like we were talking earlier about having your partner there to say, Hey, you need to take a break. This community serves as that in some ways, the mirror kind of

Brittany: exactly it is. Especially if you're working around people who are super in hustle culture. It is I think a really great balance to that.

Yeah. First realized they needed to start it because I was in all of these business communities where I realized I was, my workaholism was being really enabled. Like I would post in there oh, I just finished doing this. And like I wasn't didn't think I'd finished it until next week, but I pushed through and I did it and they would all congratulate me.

Instead of, maybe questioning or something like that. And so I realized that a lot of my bad habits were being enabled in the online communities that I was in. And so this was the. Pendulum swinging in the other direction, where in the clubhouse we do celebrate your work done, but we also celebrate your rests done.

And we celebrate the small progress, not just the big things. So you're not always pushed to make things bigger and bigger.

Nancy: That's awesome. Because I was talking with another guest who was saying that she that she, when she went through a burnout period, no one confronted her. Because she had convinced them she could do it,

Brittany: maybe she could but she shouldn’t have to.

Nancy: Exactly. And that's the problem sometimes with are those, the support systems we've built is we've built support systems that enable us to stay in this culture.

Brittany: Yeah. Yeah. I like to say it's a shelter for escapees from hustle culture.

Nancy: Oh, that's beautiful. That's really beautiful.

I like that a lot. Yeah. Okay. Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom around this and your experience and your wisdom born from experience, which I think is the best place that wisdom comes from. And I'm going to put the books that you shared and the work brighter website and all the information about you on our show notes so that everyone can find out more and learn more from your wisdom.

Brittany: Awesome. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you.

Nancy: I especially wanted to highlight what Brittany said about the importance of communication and ruthless prioritization being open to saying to your boss. Sure. I can do that. But then what should I take off my plate to make room for it? That sounds wonderful and easy, but I know for many of my clients saying those words would immediately fire off a monger attack saying you should be able to handle anything.

You aren't organized enough. You're just lazy. We automatically assume that we should be able to do everything. And do everything well, I love this question because it lets your boss know you're wanting to prioritize the work. Also reminded them of how much is on your plate. When we start to prioritize self-care, checking in with ourselves, and reducing the judgment or need to justify, we can ask for what we need and a kind loving way that supports us and the team we are a part of.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

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Episode 131: The Surprising Connection Between Avoidance and Anxiety

In today’s episode, I want to wrap the month up and talk about the connection between avoidance and High Functioning Anxiety and give you some insight into High Functioning Anxiety vs Low Functioning Anxiety.

Let me check Instagram one more time. 

Maybe I got an email? I haven’t checked for 10 minutes. 

My glass of what is almost empty. Let me go downstairs for a refill. Stretching would be good right now, anyway. 

Well, that break took a lot longer than I had planned. I got sucked into pulling some weeds while talking to my husband and then decided to make a snack. 

Oh geez, I forgot to actually refill my glass. 

Okay. Back at my desk. Before I start writing, let me check Instagram one more time. Anything new in my inbox?

This was me trying to write this podcast episode–avoiding and procrastinating. For me, this is all part of the process. 

All this month we have been talking about avoidance and anxiety. We talked with Jacquette Timmons, about avoidance and money, Erica Drewry about our relationship with food, Bailey Parnell about social media, and Andrea Owen about avoidance, anxiety, addiction.

Today I want to wrap the month up and talk about the connection between avoidance and High Functioning Anxiety and give you some insight into High Functioning Anxiety vs Low Functioning Anxiety. 

Avoidance and anxiety go hand in hand but you might be surprised to learn how. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What the differences are between High Functioning Anxiety and Low Functioning Anxiety

• How there really isn’t one type of anxiety that is better than the other

• How knowing where you fall really helps with coping better

• And how to avoid unhealthy coping mechanisms that we often develop around our anxiety

Resources mentioned:

• Coach In Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Okay, let me check Instagram just one more time. Well, maybe I got an email. I haven't checked for like 10 minutes.

Well, now I need some water. I only have half a glass. Let me go downstairs and fill up my cup. And stretching, you know, that would be good right now. WOW! That break took a lot longer than I planned.

You know, it's not my fault. My husband was working outside, so I got sucked into pulling some weeds while talking to him. Well, then I decided I needed to make a snack. Oh, Jeez, I totally forgot to actually fill up my water glass. Let me head back downstairs to actually do that. Okay. I'm back at my desk. Well, before I start writing, let me check Instagram one more time. Oh, I mean an email; it's been like another 10 minutes--I might've missed something.

This is me trying to write this podcast episode avoidance procrastination, all part of the process, I guess. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith, all this month. We're talking about avoidance and anxiety. Avoidance and anxiety go hand in hand, but not how you think today. I want to talk about avoidance and high functioning anxiety. While also giving you some insight into high functioning anxiety versus low functioning anxiety.

One of the sentiments. I hear most often from clients when I describe high-functioning anxiety is, "Oh, good. I'm not the only one". Or finally, that makes so much sense. I'm so glad I'm not alone.

So in that spirit, if you struggle with anxiety, I'm hoping this episode will help you feel less alone. When we have anxiety, we build up coping skills, sometimes healthy, sometimes unhealthy, in response to the anxious feelings inside.

If you have anxiety, you might feel a sense of dread, worry, lots of self-doubts, insecurity, and a sense of vigilance and overwhelm. That anxiety is how you see the world. It is a part of you, and something you deal with how you respond to that anxiety is important. You might be someone who is high functioning, which means in the face of anxiety, you push yourself harder and faster.

You take on more responsibility, go at it alone, engage in perfectionism and people-pleasing and hustle, hustle, hustle, in a sense, trying to outrun your anxiety. If you're someone who responds to your anxiety by low functioning, you tend to freeze in the face of anxiety. You hunker down, become more passive and rely more on other people.

As a reminder, one is not better than the other. In fact, as with most coping mechanisms, no matter your response, you shame yourself. High functioning people wish they could settle themselves down, and low functioning people wish they could propel themselves forward a bit more. Whether your response is high functioning or low functioning, both cause us pain and leave us feeling crappy.

It's important to know the difference between the two responses so you can recognize your anxiety through your behaviors. Many people, when they think of anxiety, think of the traits of low functioning anxiety. They don't realize that the hustling, pushing, going it alone, perfectionism, and people-pleasing are actually a result of anxiety.

So in showcasing these two reactions to anxiety, I want to help you see where your anxiety might be coming out and how you can take action to help. Then there is another separation of anxiety, chronic anxiety versus acute anxiety. Acute anxiety is in response to a stressor, a big deadline at work, a sickness in the family, or a massive worldwide pandemic, all-cause acute anxiety.

Whereas chronic anxiety is ongoing. I have chronic anxiety, which means on a daily basis, I deal with anxiety. It's always there. And through coping skills, I can keep it controlled. It's similar to having a chronic health condition like diabetes or arthritis. It's always there, and it might flare from time to time.

So in times of high stress, such as living through a worldwide pandemic, those with chronic anxiety have their normal everyday anxiety and then throw in some extra anxiety about the world as we know it changing. It's the difference between having pain in your legs because you overdid on your workout and having joint pain in your knees on a daily basis.

And all this month, we've been talking about avoidance. Again, avoidance looks different for those who have low functioning anxiety, and for those who have high functioning anxiety, people with low functioning anxiety are very aware of their anxiety. For the most part, they know they're anxious and what they're anxious about, and they will ruminate on that stressor.

Their avoidance shows up as being passive, avoiding the stressor, procrastinating on the stressor, and even sabotaging their own success. To quiet the nonstop ruminating, they might over or eat a pint of ice cream. They will obsess over social media to escape from their own words. Many of my clients, high function in the face of anxiety, and their anxiety is chronic.

Meaning it is with them all the time. They might experience more anxiety during stressful situations, but for the most part, anxiety is a part of their brain. For people with high functioning anxiety, avoidance looks very different. Many people with high-functioning anxiety are completely unaware that they're experiencing anxiety.

They know something is off. They know they feel unsettled, but rather than facing that unsettled feeling, they push on harder and faster. The more anxious they feel, the more they hustle and avoid those feelings. If you ask someone with high functioning anxiety, what they were anxious about, they probably couldn't tell you with any specificity.

Whereas someone with low functioning anxiety could tell you exactly what they're anxious about. Someone with high functioning anxiety isn't avoiding the stressor; they're avoiding themselves. So they will use alcohol, food, spending social media to numb out as well. But it's not to numb the feelings; it's to settle themselves after pushing so hard.

So in order to relax, they will engage in numbing activities. Both types use all the things we discussed this month to avoid, but for very different reasons, low functioning anxiety is numbing because they're so tired of feeling and high functioning anxiety is numbing because they're so tired of pushing, as Andrea Owen said about her drinking and anxiety and episode 130, that when it rolled around a four o'clock and her anxiety had been building all day, even if her intention was not to drink, she couldn't handle it without a drink.

Knowing where you fall allows you to know how to cope better with your anxiety. Because I help people with high functioning anxiety, my work is around building self loyalty, getting in touch with your feelings, building a relationship with yourself, and quieting the monger who is telling you to go go go. If you have low functioning anxiety, help would come from learning how to move through your feelings and not get stuck in them, mindset work, and shifting your ruminating thoughts and worries.

I just cannot express enough how figuring out the difference between these two responses of low functioning and high functioning has been such a game-changer for my life and my work. For so many years, I tried to treat my anxiety with low functioning anxiety tools and just made it worse. Shifting my mindset and pulling myself away from my feelings was not what I needed.

It was the opposite of what I needed. Once I realized that treating anxiety for someone with high functioning anxiety involves totally different tools. Everything shifted for my clients and me. And because those of us with anxiety love to have everything in black and white and tied up in a neat box. I want to caution you that these two definitions of high functioning and low functioning are on a continuum.

There may be times you use coping skills that are high functioning, and there may be times you use coping skills that are low functioning. People tend to have a preference, but it isn't an either-or scenario all the time. So back to avoidance, because I really want to continue to pull apart these two methods of functioning when it comes to avoidance, avoidance is part of both types. It just shows up in very different ways.

Here's an example. It's a simple example. You're given an assignment at work to present on a new project you just started in front of the entire office. With low functioning anxiety, you immediately freak out. Your response to this fear is to avoid the project altogether. You procrastinate on the task, putting it completely out of your mind because whenever it comes up, you're on the verge of a panic attack, and you just can't face it. You may, in fact, sabotage the task in some way. When you do start working on it, you miss deadlines and only do the task with a half-hearted attitude.

Putting all your energy into it is just too scary. So two days before the presentation, you're lamenting to a coworker about this project. And so they, probably someone with high functioning anxiety, jump in to take over for you and rescue you from having to present at all. These avoidance behaviors are not necessarily based on conscious choices but in response to an underlying fear of being judged, humiliated, or exposed as a fraud.

For those with high functioning anxiety, you also have avoidance behaviors in response to an underlining fear of being judged, humiliated, or exposed as a fraud, but it shows up very differently. Your Monger is loud, you know, you're going to fail and let them down. So you procrastinate until the last minute.

But you're driven by this fear of failure. You let the idea percolate in your head, you work around the idea, you get your desk already, your research the right way to use the technology, or see if there's actual research on the project you're working on. And at the very last minute, you start actually working on the presentation.

Once you get your butt in the chair, you work your butt off, getting every detail right. And you go above and beyond the call of duty. The morning of the presentation, feeling like a fraud, you grab a couple of extra donuts and pour yourself an extra-large coffee with cream because you deserve it after all the carbs don't help.

And as you step up to the presentation, you feel like you might just puke, but you can't run now, what would people think? So you step up on the stage, and almost as if you were channeling a professional speaker, you take control of the situation and pull off an amazing presentation. You walk off the stage, your coworkers are congratulating you, but you can't take the praise because you just keep thinking of all the ways you did it wrong and could have done it better.

You escaped your office, exhausted, depleted, and almost on the verge of two. With high functioning anxiety, you do the actual task. You run toward the thing that is most scary, but the avoidance strategies come in very different ways. You avoid feeling anything about the task. You avoid being fully present around the project.

You avoid owning your success because your anxiety and your Monger are telling you that if you do face anything, you will be exposed for the fraud. Because we're living in extremely high anxiety time, I would be missing something if I didn't use this time as an example. During the past few weeks, clients have said they're feeling out of control, fearful of the unknown, and full of insecurity and doubt.

And here are some of the ways low functioning anxiety and high functioning anxiety have shown up during this worldwide pandemic. If you have low functioning anxiety, you might be having a hard time concentrating. So giving yourself an out about working too hard, leaving the groceries and other tasks to the rest of the family, you're going back and forth between oversleeping and undersleeping.

Probably have your days and nights even confused, having a hard time, doing anything other than obsessing about the news while curled up on the couch or going days without watching the news while bingeing, Netflix curled up on the couch.

If you have high functioning anxiety, you've probably been overworking, even though you're having a hard time focusing. Over-planning obsessing about the groceries, focusing on homeschooling perfectly, forcing yourself to constantly be doing, being creative, trying something new using this time to be beneficial, you might have trouble sleeping, but you're jumping out of bed to make sure you're using the time production.

Sticking to the schedule as much as possible and beating yourself up when you fail to stick to it, looking outside of yourself for the right way to do this and obsessively reading articles on what to do and how to feel. And both of these types might use food as a numbing tool. As Erica Drewry the dietician and nutritionist explained in episode 128, you might be overwhelmed or you're avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don't want to feel.

Do you know what works for both types of anxiety? Awareness, and kindness. The very nature of high functioning anxiety is avoidance avoiding our feelings, avoiding what's really going on, looking outside of ourselves for answers and wisdom. Again, the reminder that one way is not better when it comes to coping with anxiety, people who appear high functioning can be in distress in the same way that people who are low functioning can be one is not more.

They're both simply responses to anxiety and avoidance is a huge part of both. Those of us with high functioning anxiety have been taught that our quirky behaviors, our overarching need for control and doing it right, or because we're high strong or type a, and that might be true. And for many of us, those behaviors are a sign of something underneath that is way more debilitating and overwhelming feeling of being found out.

As the fraud we feel inside, it is a carefully constructed house of cards designed to appear solid and strong, but in reality, is consumed by doubt and insecurity. The one theme in all the podcast episodes this month, from money to social media, to alcohol, to food, was until we stop avoiding and pretending we have it all together.

We won't heal. The first step in the healing process is looking ourselves in the mirror and saying, I see you. I get it. Let's lay it down for a few seconds. Let's put down the hustle, the appearance, the, I got this. Let's be kind. Let's admit we don't have it. And that is okay.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

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Episode 130: Alcohol, Anxiety, & Avoidance

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Andrea Owen, recovering alcoholic, life coach, and author about the connection between avoidance and alcohol.

Is it too early to pour a glass of wine? 

I'm just going to have one drink while I read my book outside. 

Okay, well, one more while I cooked dinner. 

Oh, a glass of wine would taste so good with this pasta. 

I think I'm just going to do half a glass. 

Well, there's just a little bit left in the bottle. I'm just going to finish that up…

And then at 3:00 AM, waking up with a headache and unable to go back to sleep, my monger starts chiming in: Why did you drink so much? What were you thinking? Why did you do that – again?

Before I took a long, hard look at my drinking, this was what I put myself through most days of the week.

Alcohol and anxiety tend to go hand in hand. We drink to decrease our anxiety and then because it feels so good, we drink too much and the result is an increase in anxiety. 

Today, we're continuing our month of avoidance and anxiety by talking with Andrea Owen about the connection between avoidance and alcohol. 

As a recovering alcoholic and life coach, Andrea has a unique perspective on the topic of avoidance and alcohol. She is the founder of Your Kick-Ass Life coaching and author of the books How To Stop Feeling Like Shit and 52 Ways To Live a Kick-Ass Life. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for years, and this is the first time I've had the privilege of talking with her. 

I love this interview for so many reasons, but the main point I want to leave you with is that alcohol use runs on a continuum and it is a personal decision. No one can tell you that you have a problem with alcohol except for yourself. For Andrea, her bottom was very high. For others, it takes much more drama and devastation before they notice they have a problem.

If you haven’t had the chance, go back and listen to the episodes with Jacquette Timmons, Erica Drewry, and Bailey Parnell. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• When Andrea knew she wasn’t just a social drinker

• Why it can be so hard to see that drinking is a problem

• Why alcohol gives us false hope as a treatment for our anxiety and why it can make for a dangerous combination

• What role society plays in drinking

• And what to do if you want to change your relationship with alcohol

Resources mentioned:

• Your Kick-Ass Life Podcast: Confession

• Your Kick-Ass Life coaching

• Book: How To Stop Feeling Like Shit

• Book: 52 Ways To Live a Kick-Ass Life

+ Read the Transcript

Andrea: nd then four o'clock rolls around five o'clock rolls around, and the anxiety starts to build, and that's when I would break. And it would be five 30 or six o'clock, and I'd be like, I forgot the garlic. I need to go to Trader Joe's, and I would run down there and get a bottle of two-buck chuck. And I would probably get more than one just to be safe because my anxiety was so high.

And that happened over and over again.

Nancy: What time is it? Is it too early to pour a glass of wine? Okay. I'm just going to have one drink while I read my book outside. Okay. One more while I cook dinner. Oh. A glass of wine would taste so good with this pasta. I think I'm just going to do half a glass. Oh, look.

There's just a little bit left in the bottle. I'm just going to finish that up. And then, at 3:00 AM, waking up with a headache and unable to go back to sleep. My monger would start chiming in, "Why did you drink so much? What were you thinking? Why did you do that again?"

This was most days of the week for me before I took a long, hard look at my drinking.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month, I'm talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives.

Today. We're talking about the connection between avoidance and alcohol and anxiety how they tend to go hand in hand. We drink to decrease our anxiety, and then because it feels so good, we drink too much, and the result is an increase in anxiety. My guest today is Andrea Owen, founder of your kick-ass life coaching and author of two books.

One how to stop feeling like shit, 14 habits that are holding you back from happiness and to 52 ways to live a kick-ass life BS, free wisdom to ignite your inner badass and live the life you deserve. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for years, and this is the first time I've had the privilege of talking with her. Because Andrea is a recovering alcoholic and life coach, she has a unique perspective on the topic of avoidance and alcohol. I'm so excited for you to hear our conversation. It is an open and honest and, at times, very vulnerable conversation about alcohol, anxiety, and avoidance. We recorded it just two weeks ago. So its message of alcohol abuse during the stress of a worldwide pandemic couldn't have come at a better time.

Andrea. And I talk about when she knew she wasn't just a social drinker, why it is so hard to see that drinking is a problem, the dangerous combination of alcohol and anxiety, why alcohol gives us such a false hope as a treatment for our anxiety, the role society plays in drinking and what to do if you want to change your relationship with Alex.

Okay. I am so excited to have Andrea Owen here from your kick-ass life. I have been a huge fan of Andrea's for a number of years. We're both gonna feel old here. I started following her when I was like in eighth grade, and she started doing stuff when she was in sixth. So it all works out. So, Andrea, we're talking about anxiety and avoidance. And so Andrea's here to talk to us about avoidance and alcohol, which is a subject near and dear to my heart. And I think something that a lot of my listeners are going to relate to. So I want to start right out of the box. Really big. Let's start with the word alcoholic. It's loaded. It is a loaded word. It's loaded, it is a loaded word.

Andrea: It's heavy and loaded. And I was thinking, as you first started talking when you said alcohol, and I was like, I hope people don't turn it off. Like thinking that I'm going to tell people to, I'm taking your booze away. I'm telling people to stop drinking it.

That's not it; just do what you want. It's just a discussion. And yeah, the word alcoholic is it's certainly not a term of endearment, right? Nobody wishes that they are one at all. It's not a club that really anybody wants to be put in. And that being said, there's a lot of shame and stigma around it still.

What's really interesting is that now as we're recording this in 2020, that word almost has like in the circles that I run in almost has an old-school connotation to it because so many people are getting sober. In the name of wellness and I'm using air quotes over here, which adds a whole other conversation, which I'd like to talk about, but they don't want to be associated as an alcoholic.

So they might say something like I have a dysfunctional relationship with alcohol, or it wasn't serving me anymore. So I decided to quit. I know you and I were talking beforehand about combining alcohol and medication and how it's not good for people. And there are all kinds of reasons that people either massively cut back or decide not to drink anymore.

But at the end of the day, that term alcoholic still is not one that anybody wants to be labeled as right.

Nancy: And I think it doesn't get talked about. And I like, I do like how, just because that word is so loaded. I like how the, the culture is shifting more to, it, it is a continuum that I can be someone, not everyone who is an alcoholic or has a problem with alcohol, or however you want to say it is getting up and putting.

Vodka in their orange juice. There are people that are highly functioning that still have issues with alcohol. And that's the theme where I want to talk about, we're going to talk about today. Cause I think you fall into that and I certainly fall into that. So I know you have shared your story.

I've read your story. Can you share, you have to go into the whole thing, but just share your, you had a very high bottom with your story. Can you share that high bottom just to give people a taste of that?

Andrea: Sure. And I, I want to just circle back real quick to what you just said about the continuum and it's, I don't know what the exact stats are and I'm not an expert or scientist on this, but I would venture to say that the majority of people that have a problem with alcohol are the functioning alcoholics. Are the people who still go to work every day. Hopefully they still have their job right now. There's still functioning as a normal human being. And most people wouldn't know, like some people that are close to them might suspect that they have a problem, but for the most part, they cover it up very well.

And that's part of the problem that becomes so incredibly exhausting for people that have problems like mine. And so my mind, my addiction started long before my drinking became a problem. Chronicly codependent. I struggled with love addiction in my late teens and throughout my twenties, and also had bouts of an eating disorder.

And really, I had this like buffet of addictive coping mechanisms, just really unhealthy coping mechanisms. And I would just choose one based on whatever was going on in my life. And how many people really are ever taught healthy coping mechanisms, not very many of us. And so when I woke up and became conscious of those other problems in my life, I got therapy.

I went to 12 step program for co-dependence and really turned things around. And that was right when my drinking picked up. Ah, so it was I had two little babies at home. My identity changed from being a single working woman to stay at home mom with two little babies. I had also been through a pretty egregious divorce that I hadn't ever really processed, even though I was in a much better healthier marriage at that point.

But, looking back on the trajectory, it was almost like without skipping a beat, I just went like from one thing and do another, and before my drinking, like I was a typical binge drinker in my twenties and just partying with my friends, but I could really take it or leave it, like if there wasn't any alcohol in the house, I wasn’t thinking about it.

If I went to a party and there wasn't any booze there, I wasn't upset by it or at all. But as soon as I let go of all those other coping mechanisms and my drinking started to become the forefront of how I would cope. That's when I was thinking about the inventory in my house, I was thinking about, how much time do I have to drink?

Have a drink before we go to this restaurant or the movies or this party. And I would look at everybody else's drink if I was at a dinner party, just to see. We take inventory, like how much wine is left in this bottle? Can I be the one who pours the rest of it?

Am I getting people going to notice that I've had three drinks and everybody else has only had one? These are the types of things that started consuming me. Like the type of thoughts. I shouldn't say that were consuming me and to get on a more nuanced level. I had two babies at home. I had just started a business, just barely started it.

And I remember there was one day where I was going to take my kids out into the cul-de-sac and pull them around on the wagon, which was just mind numbingly, boring. Like it doesn't say anything about how much I love my children. Like I love my children like the next mother, but it was, I was bored being a stay at home Mom and I had an, there was an empty diet Coke can that was being supposed to be taken out to the recycling. And I was like, I could pour wine into that. Three o'clock in the afternoon was not as acceptable for my neighbors to see me outside with a wine glass in my hand, but I could pour some merlot into a diet Coke can, and nobody would know.

And I did it. And I remember thinking, I had that voice that said, I don't think that's probably healthy. It's just like your conscious comes in and like taps you on the shoulder. And I was like, oh my God I didn't want to hear those voices because I knew that my dad also had a very high bottom and got sober when I was 18.

So I knew. I knew where this ship was headed and I didn't want it to be the case. I did not want to quit drinking. I could not imagine my life without alcohol. I was angry at the thought of giving up alcohol. I was like, no sobriety. Are you kidding me? How does anyone have fun? Sober? I am the fun one.

I'm a fun drunk. Sometimes I get emotional, but for the most part, like I have got myself together. It got to the point where it was things like, I'd have two glasses of wine before my husband would come home at 5:30. And as soon as I heard him pull into the driveway, I would put that dirty wine glass in the dishwasher and pull out a new one.

So he would think I was having my first one. It was things like that, that I knew. I knew on a gut level. We're not okay. Here's the other thing that I knew Nancy, is that I didn't want this to be true. I knew that if I didn't change my behavior, I was not going to get. It's just going to get worse. And I also had read some research that said that for some reason, women's progression into quote, unquote alcoholism or whatever you want to call it is faster than men's.

And they, the only explanation they have is that it's because of the way that we metabolize sugar. And it was it's interesting, but also was defeating because I'm like, I don't want this to be the case. And then I had a breakdown with my husband and I was drunk and I told him that I think I needed to get sober.

And he's just a non-drinker, he's like one of those people who can totally take it or leave it and he just leaves it. So he didn't totally understand. He's are you sure? And anyway, bottom line, is, I called a friend who had almost a decade of sobriety and recovery, and I talked to her about it and she was.

She didn't gasp. Like I thought she would, because I still thought that even I still had so much shame around it that I thought people would judge me, even the people I trusted the most. So it was a very afraid to talk to her about it. And she was not judgmental. All she said was why don't you just quit for 30 days and see what.

And I was like, I can do that. That's easy. It turns out it wasn't easy.

I was like, screw this, I'm drinking. But that was my answer.

Nancy: Was that when you went to the grocery store? Like you thought you were going to, there was some story you shared, like you thought you were going to make it. And it was like four o'clock and then you were like, I'm not going to make it. And you packed up the kids…

Andrea: Oh Yeah, no, that was when I was still drinking. And what I would do with that was the whole thought process of, okay, because this is people who have problems with alcohol. This is what we do. Okay. I drank too much last night. I am. I'm not going to drink tonight or I'm just going to, make it to the weekend.

I'm not going to drink, it's like a Wednesday or something. I'm not going to drink. I'll drink on Friday night. And then we go to the grocery store and we don't buy any alcohol. And we are just pleased as punch with ourselves. And then four o'clock rolls around five o'clock rolls around and the anxiety starts to build.

And that's when I would break and it would be five 30 or six o'clock and I'd be like, I forgot garlic. I need to go to Trader Joe's and I would run down there and get a bottle of two buck Chuck. And I would probably get more than one just to be safe because my anxiety was so high and that happened over and over again.

And it just, it's this constant, like trying to cut back or only drinking on the weekends or only drinking beer and wine. And it's people who don't have a problem with alcohol don't need to moderate. They just don't and if you're finding yourself needing to moderate, you might want to look at the bigger problem.

I'm not here to say anyone's an alcoholic. If you do this, then you are this. I'm not like, and that's part of the frustrating thing is like I went to Google and typed in. Am I an alcoholic? Hoping. On the screen, it would pop up. Yes or no. I wanted an answer flashing letters. Yes. So it was like ambiguous and I don't know.

And so that's when I got sober and there's a much bigger story to that too, but that was really the bottom for me

Nancy: Cause I wrote it down. If I don't change my behavior, it's going to get worse. Like when you said that was like a gut punch to me, just because that's, I think whenever we're making a change or whenever we notice anything, that's what happened.

We have that realization. That if I don't change my behavior, this is going to get worse. And meanwhile, we're still debating it,

Andrea: Right we're still making justifications for our behavior. Yeah we do that with other people too. We do with other people. We do that with other things. Like when we realize it's a bigger problem, whether it's food or whether it's our sedentary lifestyle or sugar or bad love and relationships and what we're tolerating. Bad bosses that were tolerating, like all that we wish and hope and pray that things are going to get better on their own. We want to take the easy route if I just ignore this. Hopefully it will get better if I just cut back on the alcohol, and we try that for a little bit.

If I just make more excuses for this person or my behavior, like we try everything, we try the easy way and that doesn't work and it becomes just infuriating and also. The sense of shame too, that washes over is just that we can't fix it. And I work with a lot of high-achieving smart women and they have climbed the corporate ladder and it's if I'm so smart, if I can keep getting promoted, if I can, if these women are making six figures and like, why can't I figure this out?

Why can't I stop? And it's such a deeper issue than just quitting drinking. Drinking. Drinking is just a symptom really.

Nancy: Because I went through a similar process, I did Brooke Castillo at the time she was doing a stop overdrinking class and I took that and it was a game changer for me.

Like I was really glad I found that, but I was surprised a, how much time I was spending, how you describe that. Thinking about it and drinking, thinking about drinking and then thinking about covering it up and I'm not really hungover, I'm just have a headache or it's just my sinuses or it's just like justifying covering it up, looking forward to it.

I was amazed how. So much of my life was devoted to it that I didn't even realize like all of that, like you said about the taking, like never leaving an empty glass on the table or taking the inventory or are they going to know that

Andrea: waiting for an acceptable hour to pour your drink?

Nancy: There's a lot of mental energy. That goes into it. And also then unhooking, as you said, it's more than just the drinking then unhooking, like the social dynamics of it. And how do I go into a room and not have a drink when that's, what I'm used to doing and all of that stuff. Navigating your life, even if you decide to just want to step back and see what it's like to do a social event without drinking, that's challenging.

Andrea: Oh my God. I went to my 20 year high school reunion and I had just gotten sober, I think, within a year or two before. And it was my first big social event. Sober wow.

You to a high school reunion. Could it get any more anxiety ridden? And I had a good high school experience. Like I know that's not everyone's experience, but I had a lot of friends and but still, I was just like fraught with anxiety and the bar is like the most popular place at a high school reunion.

Everybody's feeling awkward and wanting to put their best foot forward. And yeah, it was tough but I. Did you have a question in there? Because I was going to go off on a tangent about anxiety

Nancy: no no go off

Andrea: Well, I think that whether you do Brooks program or whether you do alcoholics anonymous and there's, I'm so grateful now that there are other options besides just AA that we'll look at the deeper problem.

My hope is that, and I don't know that much about even, the logistics and how even Brooke's program works. I know it has a lot to do with that work, but this is so much more, I just want to emphasize this is so much more than just quitting drinking. I think that for me, What I was do, what I was trying to do by drinking was runaway from my life and to deal with my life.

And I'm like generalizing here because it wasn't even something that I was completely conscious of. It was, I was so afraid to walk into healing from so many things from everything I was trying to avoid. I had, like I mentioned, I had gone through a divorce. Had just tried to sweep under the rug and like blame that person.

And like he was such a jerk and it wasn't meant to be, which is all very true. And to listen to him, it was horrifyingly heartbreaking, ending a 13 year relationship. The identity shift of becoming a mother and just everybody has stuff. Everybody listening to this, you have somebody broke your heart, whether it was your mom or dad, whether it was massive disappointments at work, whether it's being, let, go from your job.

Right now, as we're recording this, we're a global pandemic. I guarantee you there's people facing so many challenges, whether your worst challenge right now is just having to quarantine, right? This is causing collective trauma all over the place. And I use that as an example of things that we want to avoid because they suck.

Like listen I've been sober for many years now and I teach shame resilience, and I still don't want to deal with it. It's not like I look forward to it or it's one of those things. I have yet to meet an expert or facilitator or coach or therapist. Who's I cannot wait to do my EMDR therapy, its so comforting and relaxing (laughter) Like it's the freaking worst. So what's on the other side. That's so incredibly rewarding. And no one can explain that to you. Like you can't really even write that on a sales page. Yeah. You'd just have to believe that it's there.

Nancy: it's not, I as you, so I'm just putting a point on this.

It's not linear. Like I think so many people think, oh I'm remarried now to this amazing man. And so that divorce is in the past, like moving on and if you haven't dealt with it, It's not in the past. I have so many clients that are like why am I even, especially now with the collect, I've, I think a lot of stuff is coming up for people cause they're quarantined and they got all this stuff going on.

And so there are a lot of old traumas are coming back and they're like, this shouldn't be, I dealt with. Back in the timeline it's back there. Yeah. Did you didn't deal with it though?

Andrea: You did deal with it and it's back. Yes. There's that thing like, yeah. Yeah. There's that saying? That says like new level, new devil and I think it's actually new level old devil.

Yeah. I think that the same stuff keeps coming up. I heard a interview with Monica Lewinsky years ago and she was talking about the person interviewing her, asked her about her trauma, obviously she dealt with massive public humiliation and went through years of trauma therapy for it. And the interviewer asked her about it.

And she said, the goal is now not that my trauma is completely gone and disappeared. The goal is now that it's just a hummingbird versus I forget what the metaphor that she used, like a hippopotamus or something to be this huge impact that she would have. Now it's just, now it's just like a little flutter and I love that.

She said that because it was such proof that it never really goes away. Like people are facing probably people who had food scarcity issues when they were a child. Like they go to the grocery store now and that stuff comes back up. And I think it's what I have learned through all of this is to treat myself and other people too.

But just with grace and compassion, when old stuff comes back up, because I am a true believer, like I never used to be super spiritual or somatic. And like I used to like staying up in my head, it was safer, but I have really surrendered now into okay. Trauma, even if it's not trauma, just difficult situations and old memories, they live in your body.

They do. And we can't deny that it's part of just the human experience for this to come up. I think people are being triggered all over the place right now. And people, some people are dealing it for through drink.

Nancy: Yeah. And I think, culturally, it was normed. now and now.

Andrea: It's more than normed it’s almost worshipped.

Yeah. The media feed is packed more so than normal with people talking about drinking and celebrating the culture, that idea

Andrea: Because we don't know what else to say.

Nancy: Yes, very true. Because I said to you, if I hadn't gotten my drinking under control, I know I would be a two bottle or one to two bottle her right now.

I wouldn't know. I wouldn't know what to do.

Andrea: People don’t know what to do with their hands. People don't know what to do. People don't know what to say online. And people also want to find some kind of relief, not just from the physical drinking, but also of what to talk about. It's like we have to have humor through this and I think that's why everybody's talking about the tiger king right now, but also what's another really socially acceptable joke it's drinking.

Yeah. And honestly, And some people think this is such a buzzkill, but I hope that when my children are my age, that drinking is as weird as smoking is now. How, when we see, cause like when you and I were kids, I remember seeing cigarette vending machines inside of a day.

That is unheard. Those are museums now. I'm not that old. (laughing)

Nancy: Exactly. Thank you for saying that.

Andrea: But I want, I hope, like when my kids are in college, even that they are in some kind of history class and there's like ads in there from drinking. And they're like, remember when this was a thing and that it's just that kind of taboo and that we flip the script on it.

Yes. The stats are staggering of Holly Whitaker wrote a great book called quit, like a woman. And she's really great when it comes to stats and doing great research and how horrible drinking is for us. And then the domestic violence, the violence in general, the accidents, the deaths, the sexual abuse, the sexual assault that happens because of drinking will blow your mind. I told my 12 year old son, the other day we were on a walk and we were talking, he had asked me if I'd ever smoked marijuana. And I said, yes. And he looked at me like he was judging me. And I said, listen, he's 12. And I said, listen, I'm going to be honest with you.

I would rather you and your sister smoke pot. If you're going to do anything, I would rather you smoke pot versus drink. And he looked shocked and I'm like, we'll talk more. Later. We don't necessarily want you to smoke pot and there are some parents listening who might be gasping, but when you look at the stats yeah.

I've told them, I say, look at the stats. I don't, I personally don't smoke lot anymore because I'd be smoking all day.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. So w one thing I found, which, Is what I really enjoyed about drinking. I call it my fancy drink that I needed a fancy drink. And that right now, like that's like either an N/A beer or a bottle of water, in a fancy glass.

And that kind of signified the end of the day for me ritual it's a ritual. And the power of that was amazing to me that it, in so many ways it's served at the same purpose that it was like, here's your signal to relax. Here's your, have this bubbly drink and this will relax you.

Did you find anything like that? That was. What was underneath what the alcohol was serving?

Andrea: I think I was past that. I think that if I would have said what you just said, that was just an excuse for me personally. I love hearing other people's stories, but I think that what you just described sounds just like a habit.

Like for people like putting on their workout, clothes signals that it's time to go sweat. Getting the leash out for your dog signals that your dog is going to get excited. Cause he, or she knows they're going for a walk, but that's, to me that's easily replaceable. I would just put kombucha in a wine glass and be just as satisfied with the ritual aspect of it.

For me, it was more than just, I would say like the ritual was maybe like 1% of it. 99% of it was running away emotionally and mentally was

Nancy: how the alcohol made you feel. The numbing that the alcohol brought

Andrea: checking out, I just was checking out. And it was also a way to squelch my anxiety, but it ended up, I ended up totally shooting myself in the foot.

Nancy: So let's talk about that. Let's talk about how it pours gasoline on the anxiety, the rebound effect.

Andrea: It's, it's a sedative and it just, I, again, I'm not a scientist, but there, I know that there are studies out there that show that it actually makes. People's anxiety worse and it affects our sleep.

That's one part of it. I was not, I was drinking like, I think back on this and I'm like, how did I even function? Also granted, I got sober when I was 36 or 37. So I was, it was younger, somewhat younger. I still my thirties, but I would drink an entire bottle of wine. And then I would take three Tylenol PM.

That's the only way I can sleep. But then I was getting up at a pretty early, had two toddlers and I go for a three mile run. Oh, my pushing two toddlers in a baby jogger. And in a way it was to punish myself. It was to prove that I was okay if I could still get up in the morning.

And also my tolerance was high. If I could get up in the morning. Drink water and drink coffee and go for a run. Then clearly I don't have a problem. It's moms who sleep in until 10 and don't work out at all and they stay in their sweats all dayAnd I remember watching this was back when Oprah still had her show, but there was a woman on there who they were highlighting, women who are alcoholics, who were mothers.

And there was a woman who had, she hit a bottle of Chardonnay, like in the laundry room. So it's I was like, okay, then that's clearly an alcoholic and I am not one, cause I don't have to hide my alcohol. And it's funny. I ended up meeting her. That woman that was on Oprah. She had a blog and I had reached out to her and we ended up being in the same circle of recovery.

And I told her that story, she's you have no idea how many women told me the same thing. Wow. And but yeah, like that was anxiety was something also that I had such a shame and stigma around because it was a lack of control. Like I wanted to control how other people perceived me. I wanted to control how my body was the way it looked the way it behaved. And when I was having a panic attack or my anxiety, or I would just wake up with anxiety, to me that signaled total and complete weakness, it signaled that I was less than. That there was something wrong with me that I was broken. And I also didn't want anyone to know.

So if I could squelch that anxiety, even if it was for a couple of hours, then that was all that I needed. I would deal with the repercussions later, which was the next morning or the middle of the night waking up in a cold sweat at 3:00 AM.

Nancy: Yeah. Which is fascinating how our brains work. That, that break is worth it,

Andrea: It was, and it's interesting, you hear people who don't understand addiction or people that struggle with any kind of substance. And they say you had kids like, wouldn't that be enough for you to be able to quit for your kids? And I remember right before I got sober, my daughter was about six months old.

She must have been yeah. Six months old because it was my birthday. And we were, there was where we lived. There was like a community pool and jacuzzi and. I had, I was sitting on the edge of the jacuzzi with my feet in the water. And I had taken a Vicodin, which was my husband's prescription. Cause he had shoulder surgery and it was like out on the counter.

So I was like, why not? It's my birthday. So my mentality took if I get in and then had a couple of glasses of wine and the four of us had gone down to the pool and my husband was there too, but I had my daughter on my lap and she was six months old. So she was, like not walking yet, but active in my arms.

And I remember thinking that I was buzzed enough that if she fell in the water, I don't know how quick I would be getting her out, and the bubbles were going. And I remember having that thought this is dangerous. Like, the buzz that I have is dangerous.

And even that wasn't enough. But it was, but honestly, like it was those thoughts. It was, knowing that pouring wine and a diet coke in the middle of the day wasn't okay. Feeling supervised when my daughter was that little near the water wasn't okay. So all those thoughts started to stack up, which later pushed me to get sober.

Nancy: So then after the 30 day where you could, you did say, yeah. So then how did start really getting sober in those early days?

Andrea: In the early days I went to alcoholics anonymous. I went to meetings, the 12 step program meetings, and it was enormously helpful for me. I also had watched my dad go through it.

So I was familiar with the program. I also had gone to 12 step programs for co-dependence. So again, I had a sense that this could work for me, and I know that alcoholics anonymous is not for everyone. I also have my feelings surrounded. I don't go to meetings anymore. I think it needs to be, I think it needs to be updated, but alas.

That's a long shot.

Nancy: I agree with you.

Andrea: It saves a lot of people's lives. So I did, and then I actually relapsed about five months later, which is quite a story on vanilla extract and NyQuil, if you want me to tell that quick story? Oh my gosh. So I had four or five solid months of sobriety and recovery and was working with a sponsor and doing all the things they were supposed to do.

But still in the back of my mind was feeling like my story wasn't bad enough. Like I'd go to meetings and hear stories of people, getting their kids taken away, having DUIs, getting arrested, losing their jobs, losing everything, and coming from a very high bottom I've look around and I'm like this isn't me.

There wasn't really anyone there I could relate to. And they kept telling us like, listen for the similarities, not the differences. And. I remember I was at a very small meeting and someone said, I don't know about the rest of you, but I was really desperate when I got sober and everyone's nodding their head.

And I'm like, I wasn't, my rock bottom had come years before with severe co-dependence, which is another story for another episode, I got conned and my ex-boyfriend lied about having cancer to cover up his drug addiction anyway. So that rock bottom was back there, but mine wasn't. And so I. Went home, like a few days after that, my husband and I had gotten into an argument, which was pretty rare.

Like we have a really great relationship and we got into an argument and I got super triggered. Cause I was still dealing with all the emotional stuff from my divorce and he left the house to go for a walk and I'm like, this is it. He's leaving. I'm going to be a single mom and what am I going to do?

We had just moved, like just going through that whole anxiety spiral of being abandoned. And so I thought to myself, like I immediately wanted to drink because that's what we want to do. We want to change the way we feel really is what it is. I don't like feeling this way, triggered and abandoned and nervous and anxious and angry and sad and all of these things like how can I quickly change the way I feel?

Because this whole being like sober stuff, like actually having to be in my feelings is not fun for somebody else. Not for me. So I didn't want to break my sobriety. Like I didn't want to drink, but I had heard another AA speaker talk about vanilla extract and how she used to drink vanilla extract. So I go to the pantry.

The very back of the pantry, find a bottle of vanilla extract, take a swig of it. And then I look at it that was like sediment all along the bottom. And I look in, it had expired in 2005. Oh. And it was, he was 2011. So it expired six years earlier. So I was like, that's gross. I put that back. And then also it heard that you could drink cough syrup and get a buzz.

So do you see like my thought process there? It's I was looking for loopholes. I still wanted to get a buzz. But I didn't want to drink, like I would've been too to shame to go back to an AA meeting, having drank alcohol. And it just is amazing to me that I thought that I could get away with this is when I really realized I had a problem.

So I went and chugged some cough syrup and stood there for a few minutes and nothing was happening. And then I just, I call it like the case of the F*ck-its, where I just found a bottle of wine. And started drinking it. And then later on that a few hours later, my husband must've come home and my son was bouncing jumping on his bed and I was sitting right outside of the door, on the ground.

And there was like this armoire thing. And I d totally gave up and was just drinking straight out of the bottle at that point. And I had the bottle in there and I grabbed it and drank from it and he stopped jumping on the bed. He was four at the time he stopped jumping on the bed and he has this huge smile on his face.

And he goes, mommy, what are you doing? And it probably looked funny, that I was drinking from a big bottle of wine and I stopped and I looked at him and I said, I don't know. I don't know, honey. And that was the last drink that I ever had. That was September 27th, 2011. That was September 26th, 2011.

Cause my sobriety date is the 27th and I went back to AA and I told everybody what happened. I think I needed to have that relapsed because I was questioning if I really had a problem with alcohol or not. And it really, you can call it a problem with alcohol or you can call it a problem with wanting to run away from my life.

You could call it a problem of not being able to be in my feelings and my emotions, not being able to be in my discomfort. I did not know how to do that. I was like, it was like throwing a cat into a bathtub with full of water. You know how they're just like climbing. That's how I was with feelings.

I just was so incredibly uncomfortable. And that's when I really decided, okay, this is so much more than about the booze. Me learning how to process my feelings and getting really vulnerable and learning resilience. It just better coping mechanisms. So that's really also in the trajectory of my professional life changed because I never thought that I would be teaching shame resilience, never.

I started a business called your kick ass life. Do you think that this was on the repertoire? It was not, but the universe had other plans

Nancy: So, the idea of loopholes, of justification, of the mental energy that you're spending on it. I can remember I was, when I was doing my counseling training, I did an internship at a addiction place. And at the time I was a big drinker. And so I don't know what the word would be. The justifying that, you know, that here I'm a big drinker, but I'm sitting in every day in the group program with the men who are, but they all had REALLY BAD problems (Laughter)

Andrea: , like sure. But not you. (laugher)

Nancy: Exactly And I was assigned to this kid who was like 22 and he had four DUIs and he just kept saying, I don't have a drinking problem.

I just have a driving while I'm drinking problem. And I at the time was yeah, part of my brain was like, yeah, he's right. He doesn't really have a problem because I knew people that had DUIs in my circle. I never had a DUI but that idea of justifying, and that I, a part of me was like with him, believing it like a whoa to me, then I went back to my supervisor and I told him, and he was like, four DUI, That's a problem at 22. Yeah. And I was like, oh, I didn't tell him that. I was thinking this isn't a problem. Cause I, I just told him and he was like, wow. He said for DUIs, like how could he like tells you the warped thinking of him that he's just justifying it with I don't have a drinking problem. I have a driving problem. And then I was like, yeah. And then also tell us the warped thinking of me that I'm with him and I'm supposed to be his counselor here, that was my first. That was my first kind of there's something else going on here.

Andrea: Yeah. And it's just, I think it also it's what I think it would be different if he had gotten pulled over for driving under the influence of cocaine, which we know isn't really a thing, but I'm using that example because we don't put that in the same category. Yeah. If I went to a party and everyone's, like doing lines of cocaine and I'm like, oh I quit.

People wouldn't be like, what, why? Unless that's all we did in his friend circle, but I'm just, maybe this is a bad example, but like alcohol is the only drug that we allow so much laxity with. And we also ostracize, I know that my son, a dramatic word, but like when you are sober, you realize very quickly that everybody drinks, but you, and that people are almost insulted when you refuse a drink or you are the sober one at the party.

It's awkward and I am glad to see that it's changing, but it's still a thing.

Nancy: So I have a just a question. I

Andrea: probably have an answer.

Nancy: So what I've noticed for me and with clients is that, alcohol just enhances all the feelings. So I, when I couldn't, cause I couldn't tap into my feelings, like similar to you, like very similar story.

It's all up hear. Then recently also went through Brené Brown shame, resilience training, and also was like, no, but anyway, never in a million years thought I'd be the first thing that I'd be telling people is you got to acknowledge it. Never thought that would come out of my mouth.

So I would drink to tap into those and then become overly emotional to cause, I needed a way to tap into those feelings, but I didn't know how to do it unless, and the drinking would help that.

Andrea: You think that the drinking is helping? I probably seemed like the, my first thought was like, my heart just breaks for that part of you.

That is so wanting to express. Your feelings and it sound, I make up that not only do you want to express your feelings, but you probably wanted someone else to witness them as well.. And also be received in a supportive, loving, compassionate way.. Because we've all had it go wrong. I think everyone has experienced it where it's gone the other way.

And that's what makes us decide to hold them all in. That's where the term put your walls up. Don't let anybody in comes in. So that's my first thought is oh my gosh, I want it. I want to ask you if you want a consensual hug. I just, and I think that, yeah, there's so many people who are experiencing that and just aren't conscious of it.

Yeah. And how many times have we all cried in the bathroom with our girlfriends? Drunk? Yes. We're all wanting that, not drunk at all, wanting to be able to turn to our girlfriends and say, I had the shittiest week, my partner was such an asshole to me, and here's what happened. And I felt so small when we had this argument and to have it be received with, oh my gosh, tell me everything.

How can I support you? Yeah. Instead of. Oh, it probably wasn't that bad or that was nothing. Let me tell you about what happened to me at work, and it's, that's all at the end of the day is what we want. That's why this quarantine is so hard because we are meant for connection and love and to be around each other, even just socially and.

I think that's what the conversation this whole conversation is about is that we were, one of the things I realized through sobriety is that the one thing I wanted the most was intimacy and love and trust with other people, but it was also the thing I was the most terrified of. Yes.

Typical, like both outcomes are terrible in my mind. And I think that I am not the only one who feels that way.

Nancy: Yeah. I definitely cause that's what I do have to just clarify that, but I didn't know that at the time, like that's looking back, I can look in retrospect myself and be like, oh, that's what I was doing.

Was it allowed me to tap into my emotions by, over drinking But I can, cause I can remember also that my husband and I would fight more, when I was drinking and I would have the story that when we drink, cause he's a drinker. I mean he likes to drink. And he still does, even though I don't, he oh, we have these great conversations and we really hash everything out and it's so wonderful when we're really, in it together drunk.

But you don't remember it the next day? No. And it usually ended. On some stupid fight and we never fight to where the same as you, sounds the same as you guys. And we would end up in some, like arguing over something ridiculous. And that was another sign for me that that was what I started realizing this isn't fun anymore,

Andrea: Yeah, it's so interesting. I think that when you are drinking, you have no emotional boundaries at all. Either you're shoving them all down or you are lashing out when it's really not about the thing you're fighting about. It's something else that either you don't understand or that you're too afraid to talk about.

Or you are completely overstepping emotional boundaries by dumping something on someone else who is either not equipped to handle it, or you're having very high expectations of how they're supposed to handle it both. And it just, it's just never a good outcome is thinking about that. That guy you're talking about the 22 year old, there's no one makes any good decisions while they're drinking.

Maybe I'm maybe there are some good like business ideas that have come from that, but just anybody really make any good decisions. I've never made a good decision while drinking.

Nancy: No. Yeah, no, not at all. Yeah, but I'm so glad that we tapped into that feelings piece. Like really hit that. Cause I think that is a, that is at the crux of this for many of my clients is he is either trying to avoid or trying to enhance so that someone can meet them.

Where they think someone will hear them and it doesn't work.

Andrea: It's we're always trying to get our needs met at the end of the day. We're always trying to get our needs met and Harville Hendrix wrote a really great book called getting the love you want. And the gist of it is that we're always trying to heal our childhood wounds through our partners our romantic partners.

And I don't think it's even just with our romantic partners, it can be with our friends as well. And I just, I think. To tag onto that. I did not want, I just wanted to quit drinking. I didn't want to deal with the feeling stuff like in the beginning. I was like, no, I just want the quitting drinking to solve all my problems.

I don't want to talk about my childhood. I don't want to talk about my divorce. I don't want to talk about all my flaws. I didn't want any part of that. It made me wish that I had a zipper and I could just like unzip my skin and crawl out of it. Like I did not like even still I'm like, oh, I don't want to play principal development life coach anymore.

I just want to talk about new countertops. I just, it's exhausting and I'm not going to lie and tell you it's super fun and it's exhausting. But I think I got to a place where I was like, It's not the other way isn't working anymore. Yeah. And I knew from experience from my first marriage and also watching my parents' marriage, unfortunately fall apart.

A lot of it was due to my dad's drinking. Is that if I kept this up, there's no way I could have the marriage that I put on my vision board. There's no way I could have the business that I dreamed of. I had so many. I was so full of energy and enthusiasm just as a personality trait, but I knew that there was no way I was going to accomplish all these goals.

If I was just pouring alcohol on it all day long. And it was mildly devastating. And I think, I just want to mention that I had to grieve not drinking anymore. Because I had so many fun memories from my twenties and, even my early thirties, like before everything really started to fall apart, they say the alcoholics or even people that just have problems with drinking, like there are three categories there's fun as the first category.

And then the second category is fun with problems. And then the third category is just problems and you can move up. Like you can move from fun to fun with problems. To just problems, but you can never go back. And we're always trying. So I had gotten to the point where, my twenties was really just fun.

I didn't have any responsibilities. I didn't have any kids. I wasn't even like super ambitious with my career. It was just fun. And then I moved into fun with problems and I was like, Ooh, I just want to go back to fun. Maybe if we go to Vegas for the weekend, I could get back there. Yeah. And it just, and there would be days when I would just pine for those old days when it was really fun anymore. But I had to remind myself that's not what my life looked like. It was fun with problems and I was just headed for problems. And so I just want to reiterate, like it's okay to grieve your old drinking self. I had to do that. And I was denying that for probably a few years and just really ashamed of where I had ended up.

And I was like, you know what? I had a lot of really good times with my friends and even still something will come a song will come on Spotify, some Mariah Carey song, and I take a screenshot of it and send it to of my girlfriend. And I'm like, remember when we used to, that's about it and laugh and that's okay.

It's it doesn't, it's not triggering for me or anything like that. But I say all that to you have to feel whatever feelings you're feeling.

Nancy: Because it becomes a part of your identity. Like I was the fun one who never turned down a drink and always was game for shots

Andrea: a drinking game. Yeah. You and I would've had so much fun (laughing)

Andrea: and so many problems

Nancy: And you go out into the world and you've changed. And people are like, oh, you're not that the fun one anymore.

Andrea: You make up that people are going to say that.

Nancy: YES! Nicely said yeah. Thanks for saying that for that. Thank you for that

Andrea: . Yeah. You don't know. And I think you, you have to get to a place where you're okay with whatever they think.

I still have people who are like, are you sure you were an alcoholic? And that's dangerous for someone people, because then they were like, maybe I wasn't, maybe I'm okay. Maybe I can just have a glass of wine with dinner. And I have to just be okay with, they didn't know that side of me. They only knew fun Andrea, who would go to the Mexican restaurant and have a margarita. They didn't know the Andrea who was drinking, four or five glasses of wine every night on a Tuesday with a toddler on her hip. Two very different lives. Cause

Nancy: Because I ended up going back to drinking and dipping into it, experimenting and I never could get back to fun.

And I think that's why I eventually stopped. I realized I'm never going to get back to fun. And so I'm just going to stop searching for it.

Andrea: Were you disappointed?

Nancy: Yes.

I was just going to say which I was very disappointed about like that.

When you said that about the grieving, that really resonated with me. Cause it is, I've noticed what I've noticed is during this pandemic time, as we said, I would be drinking more, but I have like, when my husband goes to get a drink, I'm like, oh, I want to have a drink. And I want to be able to, to numb for right now, too.

But then when I take that story all the way through, I'm like, yeah, but I don't want to wake up in the middle of the night, feeling crappy. And I don't want to, get up in the morning, beat myself up. And I

Andrea: Really think through the drink, that's an alcoholics anonymous term, think through the drink.

So you have to just completely think about what would the next step be and on. But yeah, I still think that too. And I think it's part of that. I miss the ritual and I'm missing out on fun and part for me as someone who identifies as an addict, I also think that's the addict part of my brain.

Who's trying to get me to go back. Say that for addicts. The addict part of us is always on the sidelines warming up. Oh, the coach like put me in I'm ready. Anytime. Something really stressful happens. Like I lost my dad in 2016 and I had a my sobriety was checked just a couple of weeks ago, like when it was really hitting the fan with this pandemic, like that first one.

The week of March 9th, people were all like looking around, like what's happening. And then the following week that we get the 16th was like, really, when everybody started screaming that week I had a meltdown and was just like, oh my God, what I wouldn't give to, to be drinking again. And that is like immediately where I need to call my friends and say, this is what happened and do whatever I need to do for my own recovery and sobriety.

But, we, I always remind myself. Humans are meant for times like this. Imagine what our ancestors have been through this, the fact that we are alive, that our mothers, made it through childbirth, let alone the crisis and wars and famine. And unless you came from like aristocracy liquids, many of us, like our ancestors went through hell and I.

We were meant for this. We were meant to bounce back from this and not have to be drunk the whole time. Yeah. That is comforting to me to know that like I'm going to, this is not going to emotionally kill me.

Nancy: Yeah. That's a great way to look.

Andrea: I was going to say this isn't going to kill me.

And I'm like for some people that's a very real fright for people who are immune compromised. But emotionally, like my feelings are not going to murder me. Yeah,

Nancy: yeah. Yeah. I think that's helpful too. People. Okay. So someone's listening to this, they're intrigued. They want to learn more.

I know you have some resources, , can, you name your resources and the others you think might be helpful

Andrea: . I clearly like to talk. They have my old podcast where I interview really awesome people. And I also coach people on my show and have solo episodes as well. You can find at your kick-ass life podcast, wherever you.

Podcasts and I, what do I have going on right now? I'm writing my third book, but that's not going to be out for awhile. And I'm going to do a writing program with a colleague of mine. So that's fun. Follow me on Instagram. That's where you can find everything that's going on, your kick ass life on Instagram

Nancy: and her amazing dog as well

Andrea: She's in my stories, my coworker she's there now. I have three co-workers at my house for me. I like them a lot.

Nancy: I said that to my husband. I said, the good thing is you're the only person in the world I want to be trapped with during a pandemic. Of course, I said that. I still say that, but it's funny how each week that becomes a different I have to remind myself of that.

Andrea: So grateful that I really get along with my husband. I know that's not the case for many people or they're single and they're by themselves in their apartments. I just, I, my heart is just breaking for everyone. Who's really struggling right now. And that's everyone to some degree yeah. Yeah.

I'm thinking of all of you.

Nancy: Yeah. And you did a special series on your podcast.

Andrea: I did for drinking It's the best way to find those episodes is to go to your kick ass life.com/recovery. And you can find them there. You can listen there on the site, or you can find all the numbers and then search and I, apple podcasts or wherever you can find them there.

And that's probably the best way to find all those recovery episodes.

Nancy: Okay, Andrea, thank you so much. This was fabulous.

Andrea: I had fun and I love talking about this and DM me on Instagram. If you heard this and didn't want to just say hi, I love saying hi to people who heard me on specific topics.

Nancy: I love this interview for so many reasons, but the main point I want to leave you with is alcohol use runs on a continuum and it is a personal decision. No one can tell you that you have a problem with alcohol, except for yourself. For Andrea. Her bottom was very high for others. It takes much more drama and devastation before they noticed they've a problem.

Maybe this conversation resonated with you. Maybe you want to change your relationship with alcohol, like guy. Trust me five years ago. I never thought I could live without alcohol, especially during a pandemic. When my anxiety is sky high, it isn't always comfortable. It isn't always easy, but it is a thousand times better than the 3:00 AM wake up calls of what did you do last night

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

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Episode 129: Avoiding Through Social Media

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Bailey Parnell, founder of #safesocial about how we engage in avoidance through social media.

Social media is one of my personal favorite methods of avoiding and as you can imagine it has only gotten worse in recent weeks.

I often find myself obsessively making the rounds on social media: Twitter to Facebook to Instagram to email and back again. Stories about being isolated at home, questioning the seriousness, tips for cooking during a crisis, hoarding TP...

UGH!  This has to stop!

This is a conversation I was having with myself even before the pandemic crisis. It has only gotten worse since the shelter in place orders went down.  

Social media is an amazing catch-22 – it calms your need to be vigilant while simultaneously making you more anxious. 

All this month we have been exploring the ways that avoidance shows itself in relation to anxiety. So far we have talked with Jacquette Timmons about avoidance and money and Erica Drewry about avoidance and food. 

Today we are talking Bailey Parnell about how we engage in avoidance through social media. I am so excited to bring you this eye-opening conversation with Bailey, founder & CEO of SkillsCamp and #safesocial. After Bailey noticed her own abuse of social media she decided to research and learn more about this issue. Her approach to reducing our social media is unique and very doable. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why the research that says our anxiety increase with social media is not accurate

• Why our tendency to demonize social media only makes it worse

• Baliey’s 5 steps to using social media safely – AKA, Safe Social

• What to do when you find yourself down the rabbit hole and mindlessly scrolling

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Bailey Parnell Website

• SkillsCamp
  

• #safesocial

• Instagram: @baileyparnell

+ Read the Transcript

Bailey: But if abstinence from social media, without consequences, not an option for youth of today, the question then becomes how we practice safe, social and what emerged in my research and in others literature, was that the most important thing bar none was how you were feeling offline at the time.

Nancy: Once again, I found myself obsessively making the rounds on social media, Twitter to Facebook, to Instagram, to email, and then back again, stories about being isolated at home, questioning the seriousness tips for cooking during a crisis hoarding toilet paper OD. This has to stop. This is a conversation I had with myself before the pandemic crisis, and it has only gotten worse since the shelter in place orders went down.

Social media has this amazing catch 20. It calms your need to be vigilant while simultaneously making you more anxious, avoiding through social media is one of my personal favorites. As you can imagine, it has only gotten worse in recent weeks.

You’re listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month, I'm talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. Today. We're talking about how we engage in avoidance through social media. I'm so excited to bring you this eye-opening conversation with Bailey Parnell, founder and CEO of skills, camp, and hashtag safe social after Bailey noticed her own abuse of social media.

She just started to research and learn more about this issue. Her approach to reducing our social media is unique and very doable Bailey. And I talk about. Why the research that says our anxiety increased with social media is not exactly accurate. Why our tendency to demonize social media only makes it worse.

Her five steps to using social media safely, AKA hashtag safe, social, and what to do when you find yourself down the rabbit hole and mindlessly scroll. Okay. In continuing our month of looking at ways we avoid. I'm so excited to bring you Bailey Parnell, who is going to talk about safely using our social media with her business, hashtag safe social, which she's going to tell us more about as we talk.

So welcome

Bailey: I'm glad to be here sharing this information.

Nancy: We were just talking before I hit record how with everything going on with COVID-19, social media has become a way for me to cope even more. So, I was confessing to Bailey that I have a social media addiction.

And so, I'm very interested in picking her brain. That stuff. Okay. So how I got to know Bailey was she does an amazing Ted talk that she did three years ago. And in the Ted talk, Bailey, you talk to about your little come to Jesus of going four days without social media, which I could so relate to.

What that was like and how it changed your life.

Bailey: Yeah. So, at the beginning of the Ted talk, I share a story of how I went to visit my sister who was over in beautiful Jasper Alberta, and the west coast of Canada mountains. Everything you can imagine in terms of the most beautiful, okay. Doors. And we were going for four days, but this had been the first time that I had taken a vacation at that point.

And over four years, and it was just a four-day vacation. And so, what I mean is no work vacation with no phone, no social media going dark, essentially. And on that vacation, I definitely felt like I was experiencing Phantom vibration syndrome where I would go to check, and it wasn't there. Or I was like going to grab it to take a photo.

It was Stopper to make you realize that was your inherent reaction. And I know fast forward, I know today that it was withdrawals. It was definitely your brain and your habits actually reacting to it, not being there and subconsciously. And so, there was actually even negative repercussions such as a stress, but that was just one small experience for me.

The reason why I started this work actually. Far beyond it. It was certainly, it wasn't overnight, but it was definitely as a result of a few experiences because before my business now I used to work at Ryerson university and I worked particularly in a role that was social marketing, digital marketing, but within student affairs, so everything outside the classroom that support student success and things like health and wellness and learning support and all that jazz.

This is now going back to 2015, but at that time there was a bunch of news articles though. They only give you one side of the story saying that social media is causing depression in youth. And here I am telling youth to be on social media. And I'm again, like you just heard I'm experiencing some of this stuff myself.

And so, part of the motivator was, yeah. I someone who is working in social media, theoretically, it was my life at the time personally and academically, if this was doing this to me, what on earth was it doing to everybody? And so that, and I need to make sure if I'm going to ask you to be spending time with me here, that they can do it safely.

And so that was all together. Part of the impetus for this work, which is now almost five years ago. Wow.

Nancy: So, when you say they're only giving you one side of the story, cause we've all read those articles. What do you mean?

Bailey: Yeah. So, I'm very glad you asked that because this is a big piece that I often want to get out.

Naturally when you read these articles, a lot of reporting on any research is just the big story. And it's usually the negative story. And so, a lot of the articles that I could sell point you to today are things like social media causing depression in youth or social media relates to depressive symptoms and teenagers, and a lot of this stuff.

And so, when I went into my. Master's research. I actually thought that I would find a more explicit correlation between time on social media and the rising levels of anxiety and depression. And what I actually found was no consistency in the research at all. And some people, yeah. Some people said that, yes, there's an issue.

Some people said, there's no statistical relevancy here. We cannot comment on whether or not this is causation or just correlation. In fact, most said they believe it's correlation, not causation. And then most importantly for me was that there was also a whole group that's not talked about. That's. Wait a sec, this is actually having positive impact on our participants, improving their mental health.

So, then I was looking at, okay what is always the same and what was always the same was that when there was a mediator introduced in the middle, such as I feel envy more, or I compare myself more or I feel lonely more than it was always a bad situation. And so, what that told me was that it was actually less about the networks themselves and more about who you are offline going into the networks.

And that also remained true in my own research with my own participants, which was more qualitative and hearing from people describe their own experiences. And what you'll find, which is probably unsurprising to both of us here was that 100% of them also gave many positive experiences of using social media things.

Connection, like learning laughing finding community inspiration, motivation, all this stuff. And so, there was a group of people now, including myself, which are having a good time on social media and it's improving their effect. It's actually making them feel good. What are they doing?

Like what's going on here? That's making a lot of people have a good time and what's going on. That's making a lot of people have a bad time, was where my work went. And what

Nancy: Did you find, is there, did you find it.

Bailey: Yeah. Yeah, so now what my work focuses on and certainly the research and even the Ted talk as you'll start to see was getting there.

I just wasn't as developed as I am now three years later. But if abstinence from social media, Without consequences, not an option for youth of today. The question then becomes how do we practice safe, social and what emerged in my research and in others literature, was that the most important thing bar none was how you were feeling offline.

At the time. So for example, if it almost sounded actually exactly like this, if I went to the gym that day and I feel good, then I see these fitness models. And I think okay, hashtag goals. But if I didn't go to the gym and I feel dusty, I see them and think I hate them. Okay. And again, that's not about the influencer, that's not about the content because it's about how you, what state you're in is changing, how you perceive the content, because the exact same piece of content from the exact same person can have a very different impact on two different people and a very different impact on the same person in two different hours.

Nancy: That is fascinating. And I, but I'm biased. I can see that in my life even in the past week, when we're recording this, we're at the beginning, it seems like this total orienting. And I know at the beginning of the day when I get on social and I'm feeling okay and I'm I get on it.

Okay. Excited to see what people are doing. And it builds that sense of community for me. And then by the end of the day, when my anxiety is higher, I just get on it and everything. I see this makes me feel like crap because I'm feeling like crap. Is

Bailey: that kind of what you're. Yes, totally. And it can be self-fulfilling loop because especially in a time like this, which is high stress, and everybody's got maybe more time to fail and or feeling bored.

So, it's all ends of the spectrum. Maybe you're stressed. You go online. More news and more trauma and more issues related to COVID and then you see this person posted an opinion that you think you disagree with, and then you see this person sharing their upset story. And it's just becomes this self-fulfilling prophecy, maybe even making it a little bit worse.

However, if you were feeling good and I've experienced this myself you might go online and be laughing at all the funny names being about COVID right now. And so that, that would be considered a positive experience after social media. Cause it made you happier, made you laugh more and hopefully all those things, maybe you're connecting with friends or family over video chat or something like that.

Yeah.

Nancy: So, what I like about your approach, which is different than how I've been approaching it, which is I just shamed myself whenever I get on it. Even if it's giving me, even if it's giving me good stuff, like I'm, like Facebook. I'm going to say it is so much more enjoyable now everyone's on it.

People are posting funny memes. I'm in touch with people that I haven't been in touch with, but every time I get on it, I'm like, you're a terrible person. You shouldn't be on this. So, you just said that common, how do you. Unhooking that, like that mic, there's so many messages out there about how this is so terrible.

And you're saying, whoa, it's not terrible but it, you need some time.

Bailey: Yeah, I'm saying that it doesn't have to be tight right now. It's not a great situation that I admit, especially for young people, but the reason I believe to my core enough to start another organization. It's terrible for, because we're not practicing safe social, because there's not a general understanding.

Of course, it's just new. Like it's just so recent in history that we have this risky behavior. We've very much known. Now the risks associated with using a risky behavior like sex or drugs or alcohol, simply being something where you expose yourself to potential harm. That's it. And we know that's the case with social media.

So, you have this risky behavior. That's really quite recent in terms of the grand scheme of history. And you have a lot of youth who are in a very normal stage of life, where peer to peer comparison is very normal pre social media, and now it's quantified it doesn't end and it's directly tied to you.

And that doesn't change when you become an adult. We have right now. And then of course, once you're in this risky behavior, maybe you are experiencing stress. Maybe you are being harassed or you feel depressed as a result, or you're frustrated that you can't focus. And the traditional supports that exists for other risky behaviors.

Don't exist here because maybe you want to tell a parent that you're being harassed, or maybe you want to share with a therapist, how you feel, or a teacher or an educator. And just based on the time of history, largely those people right now did not grow up with social media themselves. And sometimes a lot of them want to say things like my God, who cares if they didn't like your phone or get your head up.

Oh, go outside, like all this stuff, but honestly, just try telling the alcoholic to just put down the drink. It doesn't work that way. So, I guess to answer your question, bring it back to the positive a little bit. Yeah. Cause I rant a little bit because it's frustrating.

Nancy: No, I appreciate it. Rant away. Yeah

Bailey: It's frustrating. The lack of empathy for what is so clear to me and why I try to share this information with everyone, because I know what it's doing to the brain and then. There are forces outside of just a decision to just stop. So, I have my five steps towards safe social. And the first step is building awareness and understanding much like other risky behaviors.

So, I'm very glad to be on this podcast and that people who might be listening might even understand if they watch the Ted talk, what is a social currency or what is a highlight reel or social comparison? What are even the potential risks of using you need to start there? Do you even understand the potential risks and what to look out for?

Okay. Step two is moderating your consumption, just like any other risky behavior. Mine of choice as well.

I love one, but am I getting drunk every day? All day? No, I'm not because we have figured out how to keep ourselves safe, how to get the benefits of this delicious little effort.

With social media, it's asking yourself questions do I do this because I need it. And I feel that I need it. And my body's having a reaction when I'm not using or because I want it. Am I actually consuming things? Bring the value or bring positive at all, like connection or community or humor, or am I feeling frustrated after I use, do I forget what I've been doing for the last hour?

And so, part of what I'm doing now is creating tools to help people figure that out. Like a self-assessment called, are you addicted to social media, which is asking questions like, because I know that I know this better than everybody else. So, I want to create a self-assessment tool that can help you walk through questions without me in front of you all the time.

So maybe even things like that you would ask with other addictions, has this affected your relationships? Have you ever caught people telling you're hello; I'm talking to you, or you don't spend time with me, or have you blacked out and not remembered what you've been doing for the last hour or have you lied in maneuvered situations to go?

Social media, say you're going to the bathroom, but you're not, there's so many that you can, that's going to be quite a long self-assessment, but that's step two. Step three is building the offline soft skills and things like resilience and self-awareness and stress management. So that no matter what comes your way, because we can't control, what's going to always come our way on the Instagram explore page that you're better able to handle it and prevent yourself.

And understand yourself and know when you should not be taking it. If you are feeling depressed or lonely, and that's not the time to take a hit, unless you've seriously curated your feeds to be people that you feel truly connected to. And like they support you. And then step four is modeling good behavior.

And making sure that, especially for adults that, you're not there saying, get your head out of your phone, but you've been on your email, the whole didn't work and modeling, like modeling relationships with technology and social media or that you're not there saying I'm spreading hate. Yeah.

Complaining all the time on social media, but then also complaining that it's a toxic place, even though you have all these kids’ reading what you're posting now, you're showing them that this is okay, that's the way you behave in this space. Yeah. So, it's just all that sort of stuff. And then finally, step five is holding them responsible parties, accountable and like any other risky behavior.

It's a multi-pronged approach. So, governments can do more. The companies themselves can do more parents, educators, media are. So that's the five steps towards things.

Nancy: So, I love your comparison, which I think is dead on. And I'd never thought about it that way of alcohol.

All these other addictions and the idea that, you know, we, it, because it's so recent.

Put that in our brains, but that is, I'll be sitting, having dinner with my husband and we're in front of the TV usually. So, we already have a screen and then halfway through the meal, we're both on our phones, whether he's playing a game or I'm, and we might even still be talking, but we grabbed our phones and.

There goes our brain. So, tell me about what it does to the brain.

Bailey: Yeah. So, we are still figuring out to be honest. And I'm the first to admit that this is recent, that we're in the middle of this as we go. So, all the answers don't exist yet. For example, we don't have 50-year old’s that went through puberty with social media.

They don't exist yet. So, we don't really know the long-term consequences, positive and or negative of this many stimuli for the brain. However, what we do know already is that we are conditioning the brain to react to social media and that the addiction is very much by every measure, widespread addiction right now.

So, both physiologically and habitually. So, on one side of that, we have, say for example, chemicals like dopamine or serotonin, oxytocin, those feel-good chemicals being released every time you get a or a shot of that feel good chemical. So, what do you do to feel good? Again? You take just one more hit you take just one more post and that comment that makes you feel good.

So, we know that, especially for youth, possibly from a very young age where the brain is not fully developed yet that we are actually conditioning a response that doesn't exist in adults right now. And that's another reason why they. They might be, are trying to understand, but they're actually conditioned differently.

We know that companies are using things like red notifications because red makes the blood pump and makes you want to deal with it. So, there's all this kind of stuff. Like the brain. We know that there's like the emotional, psychological part of the brain. And then also like the biological responses that I was just describing, but the terms of emotional, psychological, We, I use social comparison theory as the basis of my research, because we've used this for, it's a general theory of belief that people compare themselves as a means of understanding their identity.

Not new way before social media, this could be very serious, or it could be as simple as I know that I'm tall because I look around and everybody else is shorter than me. And in that comparison, I understand my identity as being tall. So sometimes it's like that, but I also look into, to upward, neutral and downward comparison.

So upward being like, imagine yourself, make the comparison and deem them further up than you or better than you neutral being that they're on the same ground. And then downward being that. Imagine you looked down on them in whatever judgment. And then when you move on to something like Instagram, you have highlight reels of people, putting out their best and brightest curated, edited moments.

And now you're making maybe more frequent comparisons and more frequent, upward comparison. Which is not necessarily great if you don't see that comparison as motivating or inspiring.

Nancy: Ah, that's a great add in.

Bailey: Yeah, because what is, we're getting technical now, but hopefully your audience will appreciate this, but with the upward comparison and the downward comparison, neither are inherently good or bad even though what you hear.

So, an upward comparison. I for example, do a lot of upward comparing because I want to follow people that motivate me. So, I think you're better off financially, or I think you're more fit or whatever, because, or I think you travel more, but I see that, and I take that as motivation for the most part. And same thing with downward social comparison.

Some people. Would feel guilty that they made the downward comparison and some people, it would make them feel better about themselves because they've made themselves better off. So really, it's again, back to who you are right in with yourself.

Nancy: So, there may be. Like I know, and that goes back to how I'm feeling.

There are times when I get online and I go to Instagram and the people that I follow that are an upward comparison, make me feel challenged. And if I'm feeling crappy, I go and look at them and they make me feel bad about myself. Cause I'm not hitting where they are. Yeah. That's less about. So, are you saying that's less about the social media and more just about me being aware of where I am to say now's not the time to be on social media?

If that's making me feel bad.

Bailey: Yes. I would say that in response, if you catch yourself doing something like that, an immediate thing that you can do is say. Okay. One, who am I following? Like, why am I feeling this way? Do I even like this poster? Do I even like this content and kind of checking in with yourself that way?

And that was a real observation, no thing that I did in with my own participants. And I would make that. Go through maybe five posts on their feet or keep going through their feed. And I would say, hey wait, stop. Why did you like that? Or why are you following this person? Or did you even read the caption or how come you like every single photo?

Do you actually like that photo? Like all these kinds of questions that make them make it mindful. And so sometimes you would hear a lot of, no, I actually don't know them. I just followed them because they followed me or I don't, I know. Every time I do see their posts. It does make me feel worse off like these kinds of conversations that would maybe answer the question for you about, is this a youth thing, or can you help do, fix your feeds so that they're better for you?

And the other thing could be. Do I feel this way? No. Most of the time I like your content. So, this might be a me thing right now and I need to go figure out like, so in, in that situation that you described exactly. I know for myself, when I feel that way, like if I'm seeing someone succeed and I'm thinking even a little bit of like, why aren't I there, I know that's like a trigger for me.

I need to get to work then because I need to take action. I need to feel like I'm in control of this, of the outcome again. So, I need to, sometimes I've even taken breaks off social media, even unintentionally. Been like, oh, wow. I haven't posted in a month because I'm going to do the thing. I wouldn't have anything to talk about.

That makes me feel better when I get them,

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. What do you do? How do you like, just, I know for me, from the time I get up in the morning and it's the first thing I pick up. It's the last thing I put down my phone is, I haven't taken your assessment, but I really feel like I am the, in the addicted category and my husband would probably agree.

So not to, for you to solve my addiction in the next five minutes, but how, what steps would you give someone that's I know I have a problem. It may not be an addiction, but I know I have a problem.

Bailey: What can I do? Yeah. So, this the website, I'm like, I'm doing it right now, so it's fresh in my memory, but the website will be broken up into those five steps towards safe social.

And if you've identified, you have an issue, then it's time to go into. Step two and three. So, step two, being moderate consumption, step three, being, build the offline soft skills and these need to happen simultaneously. So, step two, I would say, and what I'm going to include in that organization would be things like answer these like a self-reflection assessment about answering those questions.

And my, do I feel like I'm on social media? All my friends are on it or because I actually take value from it. But then it's going to just go to the next step, which is ways you can moderate consumption, try these apps, try removing notifications, try removing notifications for certain things.

So that you can have to actively seek it. You actually have to make it active that you go into the app instead of passively receiving all the notifications, try moving the app to a different page. If you feel that it's mindless and that you're just logging in without knowing you can try if it's a time issue that you feel that you're having try tracking your time, try leaving it across the thing like the Room, but we're getting into light ones now, but just the same with alcohol.

You might need to take a break, like you might need to experience some withdrawals for a bit and detox a little bit so that you can remind yourself what it's like to operate without and remind the brain. So, then the next phase of that is that if you really want to build long-term solutions for dealing in this world, you need to work on things like resilience and self-awareness and building your community.

And so that's why I'm also going to include some of skills, camps, activities in there, real activities that you can do solo for building your like answering things about coping strategies, things that you can come back to later when you are in a time of need. And then finally, I think one thing I might also include.

An early iteration of this organization is, I don't know if it's going to be used or not. There's, I'm going to include resources of course, to things like kids, help phone and mental health services, depending on really, if you're, even if you're just frustrated all the way to, if you're feeling suicidal because of what you're experiencing online.

But I also was thinking, should I even just include, I know that community is important to this. Just like every other whisky behavior. Is there a way that I could have an hour long, weekly zoom? Group sessions, like a weekly group session and we always have it. You can come, you can join.

It's going to be there. Maybe nobody comes, but that you can talk to other people about what you're experiencing. So, I know. Yeah. So that's where I'm at right now.

Nancy: I love that idea. I mean, I think that is because it is such a unique. I know that I am, and I'm just laying myself bare here on the podcast, but I know like comparatively to, when I talk about how much I use my phone in comparison to.

The people around me, they're like, whoa, like I have a problem. So, it would be helpful to be able to go talk about it with other people that get that,

Bailey: I'd say that the most important thing also though, I'm like going to, it might seem I'm contradicting myself, but I'm not. And I'll explain why, but I still say the most important thing for you is that if other people think you use your phone a lot because like I just suggested time on social media in the literature was not actually a good indicator of anything.

It was not. So you could, if you're having a really bad time for 15 minutes, that could do more harm to you than if you're having a good time for six and using it for work, it's just quality of the time. So I would say one. Good. Yeah. So start there, but also for you yourself. I'm not imposing this on you, but someone who I would say, maybe ask these questions.

If you're in a similar situation would be you, if you leave, you use it before bed and you use it when you wake up, as I do, like I do have I sometimes like to go on Reddit before bed or watch some YouTube and I like it like. I still like it, and I still don't feel bad about it. And I wake up in the morning and I usually read my email digest of the news and check Instagram and Facebook messages.

And I don't have a problem with it either. Like it's not negatively harming my effect or my mood and it's not harming my productivity. I, and it's not harming my relationships. So, I think that, and most importantly, I don't feel guilty about. Whereas, if you are feeling like, oh, I'm using so much of this, I do want to reduce it, then yes.

Take it. But if you're not, you don't need to take someone else's prescription of they think is okay. That's really helpful. Yeah. Yeah. And hopefully that might make people, some people feel better. Like you don't have to create a problem if there isn't one, if you have two glasses of wine a night, some will, some people would be really uncomfortable with a glass of red wine at night and they'd be like, you drink every day.

Yes, I yeah. Okay. On average would have a glass today. Sometimes it's none, but sometimes it's two. Some people would be deeply like that. Wouldn't even like they would feel guilty and that's what matters. To the mental health side.

Nancy: Right? Totally. No, I hear what you're saying. Because I think it is, because I use it when I get up in the morning.

And I it's part of my ritual, like to check Facebook and check Instagram and I enjoy, I do enjoy it. Like I, cause I've and I've read, but don't put your phone, don't open your phone for two hours and just let your brain. But my anxiety actually decreases. When I check social media right away because I just enjoy it and I feel connected and it's just a fun thing to do for my kitchen.

And then before I go to bed every night, I actually read the New York times and lay in bed and read it on my phone. And it is, people will be like, oh my gosh, you're reading the news. And it's so stressful. But for some reason in my bed, it feels safe. It's not, it doesn't bother, like to your point does not negatively affect me now

Bailey: I'm very specific though about, what I do like to read in the morning and at night, because it probably would annoy me if I started with Twitter in the morning.,

Nancy: yes. Yeah, because I like, I have dogs that I follow and, like just things that make me happy in the morning. But where I noticed it and not to make this all about me, but I'm going to make it all about me.

Where I notice it, a lot is like when I'm working. And I'll be like, oh, let me just check Facebook. And then I like am down in the yeah. I'm down the rabbit hole.

Bailey: Yeah. That came up a lot in my work as well. Frustration with the mindlessness feeling like you don't have. Yes.

Nancy: So, talk to me about that.

Bailey: So that did come up a lot. The mindlessness of it almost again, feeling like you are doing something without control over your own mind in a way. And or being loose. And at that point, it is actually affecting your work. Like it's affecting yourself. You need to have, if you feel like, for example, that you don't have a stopper, you might need to stop it in the middle of the day.

For example, some people will say, oh, I'm just going to go on for 15 minutes and then get back to work. If you don't have that stopper yet, like if you don't have the discipline yet then you might not, that might not be okay for you in the middle of the day. Okay. Or you might need to set there's apps that for example enforce time limits.

So, you can add this yourself. You can even ask an accountability buddy, to do it for you. That, for example, like a parent has to be like, you can't turn it back on yourself. Someone else has got to turn it back on. I've hit my hours, and this is where you do need external help. Like someone else taking the alcohol out of the room for you.

Nancy: I just add on time, like it says you have exceeded your time, and I'm like, okay, I just need to add more time.

Bailey: But yeah. And the other thing is so for example, my partner, he uses this method called the dash method. I don't, I lie. It's called the Pomodoro technique. Oh yes. Yeah. I've talked about that. Yeah.

So, he loves that. Yeah. So, the 25 on 25, off 25 on five off for like this whole system. But at least then when he's focused, he knows he's going to have the time. I will be able to, I have distraction time, like booked in a way, right? Yeah. So, then you just get into the system of, oh, I know.

I'll get to that later, but I know that I'm getting back to this work now. And there's no one solution for anybody, unfortunately, which is why we do have to try different things and why I want to provide more of that. More than one strategy for people.

Nancy: Yeah. I love what you're saying.

Because like I've even what I, that the twenty-five what happens to me. I changed course. What happens to me is all Facebook then leads to Instagram, which leads to Twitter, which leads to, checking mighty networks, which is a thing that I belong to, which leads to checking my email. And then that takes me, 20 minutes.

Oh, maybe I missed something on Facebook. So, then we just start the pattern over again. And so, I appreciate, but what I hear the most from your message is you can implement all the strategies you want, which may be helpful. But the bigger picture here is you have to be bringing mindfulness.

Do this activity. Yes, because it is a risky behavior.

Bailey: Yes. If I was blindly drinking every night, you would say, I have an issue. If I am getting off this just seems, it seems lower risk. It seems oh, who cares? But that's just because drinking and drugs, these things have been around so long.

There are biblical rules against them. So, we know. The risks here. We know them biologically socially, behaviorally physiologically Reno. So, we don't we know there's risks here. We are figuring them out. But we actually are in the middle of it. This very well could have longer term and more widespread effects on the collective wellbeing of us.

And we are living it right now. This more clearly, even though a hundred years. So, you're right. That this bigger picture is that we are being mindful about it, that this content we're taking in is definitely informing who we are. It's informing. What we know about the world, what we believe about others, it's informing what we believe about ourselves, what we see as our identity or regular.

If we feel guilty, like this is very much affecting our life, which means it needs to be mindful because who knows, if you're getting off Instagram and you don't know what you've seen for the last time, The images are still implanted on your brain. And this has been shown by subconscious visually visualization.

But even if you're shown a bunch of images in the background that people can still remember them, stuff like that, we know that it's going to your brain, right?

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because I think the tendency is to, you recognize just in anytime we're making an, a general change, you recognize something as a problem.

And so, you demonize it. And then you slowly bring it back to how can I live with it? This is not if you have an addiction, obviously. I'm not talking about moderation and alcohol, if you're an addict, but I am talking about how do I use it in moderation and the only way to do that. Yeah.

If I am, which I don't do. So that's why you've really helped me. If I can be more intentional about how I'm using it and not because my tendency is to demonize it all the time. And yeah.

Bailey: For yourself.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. So, you've helped me on two levels, one, and hopefully you've helped. Some of the people listening is one to recognize it.

Isn't all terrible and it does bring some good things to my life and to, I need to be intentional in how I'm using it and aware of how I'm feeling. Yeah, it was and aware of who I'm following and why I'm following them and not just be like, oh, they're following me. Like I do a ton of that. I don't want to upset them.

So let me make sure I liked them.

Bailey: Which is, it does not sound like, oh, I just had the beer because I didn't want my friends to think I'm right. Exactly. That's totally it.

Nancy: And even when I've tried to get off social media, what has brought me back, which was enjoyable, but what brought me back was that I missed like my cousins, baby announcement, and you miss stuff, you miss the good stuff.

Yeah. But even being a tension about who I'm letting in. To my brain through social media.

Bailey: It's you can control this, so don't let it control you. Yeah.

Nancy: I love what you're doing. I have not, I've done a lot of research of my own obviously, because I'm really concerned about it. I've never heard it presented like this. This is so great.

Bailey: Not great that it's not easier to find. I'm trying to fix that over COVID but I'm also. This is why it's so important to me because when I just know that I would be laughed out of a high school class. If I told them they had to get off, wait, it has to be about social. It has to be about safe, social cause abstinence education doesn't work really anywhere,

Nancy:

I'm blown away. So, thank you. I, you made me feel better about my own situation and gave me some tools for moving forward, which is a double you can't ask for more than that from an interview, man.

So where can people find out more about this. I know you're in the process,

Bailey: but yeah, right now you can follow me at Bailey Parnell on everything.

And especially, probably I'm most active on Instagram. And I will definitely put out when safe social has fully moved out and is out there in the world. And of course, Bailey parnell.com is my website where you can see also a bunch of other videos about this topic and stuff like that. Oh, and of course, hashtag safe sex.

Nancy: Okay, cool. Thanks. I'm glad you shared that.

I want to highlight the two takeaways that resonated the most with me. Number one, recognizing that social media isn't all bad. And my tendency to shame myself about using it actually makes it worse. And number two, social media is an activity like alcohol, which means we need to use it in moderation.

We need to bring more intention to our social media usage and not just allow it to mindlessly take up space in our lives. These interviews on avoidance are showing me that there's so much more to avoiding that appears on the surface societal messages, cultural norms, and our own shaming can cause these techniques to spiral out of control.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

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Episode 128: Eating Your Anxiety

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Erica Drewry a Registered Dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor avoidance, and how it plays out with food.

Chocolate, ice cream, chips, cheese balls, Ho-Hos, and Junior Mints. My list was packed with all the necessities for surviving a global pandemic–at least all the necessities for one who emotionally eats. 

When the governor of Ohio announced that he was closing all non-essential businesses, my first thought was: Oh no! Do we have enough food? I did a mental scan of our fridge and our pantry, wondering if we had enough to make it through a couple of weeks, if not longer, under lockdown.

I immediately opened an Instacart account and started making my list. 

I was going to be ready for what was coming.

All this month I am talking with experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. 

Today I am talking with Erica Drewry about avoidance and how it plays out with food. 

Erica is a registered dietitian and Certified Intuitive Eating Counselor in Columbus, Ohio. For the past 11 years, she has been the owner of Aligned Nutrition and provides nutritional counseling in person and virtually.  

This topic is very personal to me and I am so excited for you to hear our conversation!  It is an open and honest (at times very vulnerable!) conversation about food, anxiety, and avoidance. You will definitely get a glimpse into my personal story of how I use food to avoid. 

We recorded it just 2 weeks ago so it’s a message of eating during the stress of a worldwide pandemic that couldn’t have come at a better time. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What might be behind our tendency to eat when we are bored, and why I filled my Instacart with junk food

• How binging and restricting go hand and hand, even if you don’t think you have a problem with restricting

• What intuitive eating really means and how it gets distorted in society

• What role society plays in our relationship with food

Resources mentioned in this episode:

• Aligned Nutrition

• @alignednutrition (on Facebook, Youtube, & Instagram)

+ Read the Transcript

Erica: So, you might feel bored, but you might be overwhelmed, or you’re avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don’t want to feel. So, with those types of prompts, now we can do something with it and figure out what’s actually going on. Why are you eating?

Nancy: When the governor of Ohio announced that he was closing all non-essential businesses.

My first thought was, oh my God, do we have enough food? I did a mental scan of our fridge and our pantry. Wondering if we had enough to make it through a couple of weeks, if not longer, under lockdown, I immediately signed on to Instacart and started making my list. Chocolates, ice cream chips, cheese ball Ho-Hos. And of course, junior mints.

My list was packed with all the necessities for surviving a pandemic, at least all the necessities for one who emotionally eats, I was going to be ready for what was coming.

You are listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and release. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

All this month. I’m talking with the experts in a variety of areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. Today, we are talking about avoidance and how it plays out with food. This topic is very personal to me, which you will definitely hear in the interview.

Today’s guest Erica Drewry was sharing that her favorite interviews around food. I, when the host asked her own personal questions. So, I took that as an opportunity. You will definitely get a glimpse into my personal story and how I use food to avoid. Erica is a registered dietician and a certified, intuitive eating counselor in Columbus, Ohio. For the past 11 years, she has been the owner of align nutrition and provides nutritional counseling in-person and virtually. I am so excited for you to hear our conversation.

It is an open and honest and at times, very vulnerable conversation about food anxiety and avoiding it. We recorded it just two weeks ago. So, it’s messages of eating during the stress of a worldwide pandemic couldn’t have come at a better time. Erica and I talk about what might be behind our tendency to eat when we’re bored and why I filled my Instacart with junk food.

The answer might really surprise you how bingeing and restricting go hand in hand. Even if you don’t think you have a problem with restricting. Because I didn’t and I was really worried. What intuitive eating really means and how it gets distorted in society and society’s role in our relationship with food.

I am so excited to have Erica drew here to talk to us about nutrition and eating and all that stuff that comes as a big one for avoiding. So welcome, Erica.

Erica: Thank you for having me.

Nancy: I have to share that Erica is a friend of mine, so that’s an even more fun of an interview to do because we talk frequently.

And so, I’m really excited to have her here and be able to pick her brain about this particular subject. Okay, so I’m just going to dive right. In recently, you wrote a post about eating when you’re bored and here we are in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic and boredom for some of us is, I guess, boredom and anxiety.

Because not all of us are bored. Those who are staying at home with their kids and dealing with all that. But I really want to, I really want to hear your take on that. And tell us more about that blog post or, your, I gave you multiple questions there with the boredom and the COVID-19, but let’s just dump into boredom and where you can dive into the COVID-19.

That’d be cool.

Erica: Perfect. Yeah, I think what has happened is that with COVID-19, it’s exacerbated underlying things that we might be feeling in our day to day. And so, I am somebody that doesn’t believe outright in boredom eating, and the reason for that. And I think as a therapist, you will appreciate this.

I think there are better questions. And I think the one I, when I’ve been working with clients over the years, I’ve realized that boredom eating is a blanket state. There’s usually something else going on. And so, it’s not that people don’t feel bored, or they know something’s off, but I think what is actually happening is that they’re disconnected in some way.

So always say, you’re not bored, you’re disconnected. And so, let’s find you some better ways to address that because, typically the antidote to boredom. Finding something to do, right? Whether that’s a hobby or a passion or quality time with someone you care about, but we may be missing the point with that, and so I always say, some of the better questions are going to be thinking about whether yeah. Life balance in your life, the big parts of your life, job relationships, money are those in balance because that could be something that’s leading you to be disconnected from yourself or a bigger worry where you might be turning to food.

Another thing we could be thinking about is, do you need more rest, or do you need more play, or do you need something to look forward to doing you need a change of scenery? So, it was like again, with boredom eating, we may not be addressing some of those things. You may just be distracting yourself when you actually need to take a nap.

Okay. And then another thing to think about with boredom eating is when. You might be avoiding something. I figured we could dive into that a little bit

Nancy: Yes. That I was, but yeah, I think that’s a big one right there.

Erica: It is. And from talking to my community and then in my work with clients, I think that’s one of the biggest ones is that you are avoiding something.

So, you might feel bored, but you might be overwhelmed, or you’re avoiding a difficult conversation or a feeling that you don’t want to feel. So, with those types of prompts, now we can do something with it and figure out what’s actually going on. Why are you eating?

Nancy: How do you I know even with this, COVID-19 like we had gone to the grocery store, we had gotten the necessities and then once, our governor put down the order that we were going to be here for two weeks, I like, it was my first priority I had. Fill up my Instacart. I had to get ice cream and chocolate. And like even a couple of days later, I said to my husband, I don’t know that I even got like enough real food because I’ve bought so many snacks and was just like totally sugar buying. I recognize that was happening, like I knew when I was shopping on Instacart that I was doing it, what would you recommend to pull back?

Erica: Yeah. It sounds like that kind of scarcity and anxiety was triggered. So, we think, okay, we’ve got to stock up. And then we also have an abundance of food around us that we may not usually have, I’ve talked with several people who were like, oh, I don’t keep that much stuff in my house because then I’ll eat it all.

And so now you’re in this situation where, given the orders that we were given, we want to be careful and go ahead and have food that’s available for us when we need it. And. That can be really uncomfortable. How do you deal with having more food on hand than usual or foods that you might not have as much of, and you’re right?

And that you can’t have as many foods that are going to expire within days. You might’ve run out of salad last week, but you still have chocolate because it’s more shelf stable. And I think we get a lot of those messages of, always shop on the outside of the grocery store, all the fresh things.

Here we are having this challenge now; we really needed to learn how to like stock a pantry and have snacks and have things in our freezer and maybe eat things that are more convenience foods or more processed, and that are less perishable challenges. Some of those expectations.

Nancy: that’s what it is.

So, for me has always been so hard with food and it is a way I avoid, it totally, I can think of nothing that brings me more joy than, having a bag of Reese cups and being able to sit on the couch and just have permission to eat as much as I want. And sometimes that’s okay.

And it’s unhooking all the old food rules I have. And I have a ton of them from, being in college and being super militant and doing weight Watchers and losing 30 pounds and then regaining it. And, like all that stuff piles up over time. How do you separate out the food crap from the what’s really going on mentally and emotionally?

Oh, I know I’m totally going off script here and I apologize.

Erica: Okay. I think it links up with where we wanted to talk about that kind of shoulds. And so, it’s a great question because it is a lot of work to sort through both, and how do you know whether it’s all of your food rules rearing up and all of the leftover diet crap that you’re dealing with.

And then when is it that you have a legitimate need for something? And that’s why I think when it comes to healing, our relationship with food, I see it as nutrition as a form of self-care because you’re looking at, oh gosh, you know what a day it’s been, I’m really uncertain about tomorrow.

I’m feeling anxious. You’re not committing any crimes by eating some Reese. But you’re doing yourself a disservice. If you’re not eating Reese cups and asking yourself, what do I need right now? Is it, some fresh air? Is it, completing a task that you’ve been avoiding or dealing with some feelings that you haven’t been wanting to feel?

It’s I think we can do both. And that’s where we don’t want to overly pathologize and should all over ourselves for emotional eating. Because we’re emotional beings, we’re going to be eating and feeling emotions at the same time. And you can soothe with food. It’s just relatively ineffective.

It’s really the only way that you can deal with it.

Nancy: That’s helpful because it is just, I was even thinking, as you were talking, I was thinking like I have all the rules. And I never stepped back to say, to ask myself, how does you know, it’s a relatively recent thing for me. I would say that I am recognizing like, when you’re eating the Reese cups girl, your stomach’s upset.

You don’t feel good, but not, but even some of that is still blaming it on the food. I don’t stop to pull back and say, what’s really going on. What are you trying to avoid? What are you missing? What’s the tough thing you’re trying to get away from, which I think is what you’re saying?

Erica: absolutely.

And you’re seeing it as an indicator, I’m reaching for the bag of Reese cups and, am I hungry? Yeah. This is snack time or no, I don’t think so. And then you proceed, you, you can choose to proceed or not, and neither way is right or wrong. And so, then if you proceed, it might be reflecting on it afterwards.

Gosh, I’m not feeling so well. I wonder what was going on before. I did that. And I wonder what I need to do now. And it’s like honoring both that there’s this dynamic interplay between the food and the emotions. And so how do you handle like feeding yourself in a way that feels good. And then how do you handle taking good care of your emotional health.

And making sure they don’t get too interconnected

Nancy: Because all of the Weightwatchers and all of the diets, or even, healthy eating plans, whatever you want to call them, they’re still pulling you outside of someone else’s telling me what to do. Yes. I’m not listening to myself. I’m following someone else’s rules, which is why for people with high-functioning anxiety that is so attractive because we want someone else to tell me what to do.

If someone else tells me what to do, I don’t have to think about it, and I can just follow the rules if I know I’m doing it right. And it’s really clear. And so for me, that has always been so hard since I recognize that if I follow it, one of those plans that happens, but I haven’t been able to figure out what to do instead.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And you’re highlighting a really important concept of that kind of external-internal influence. And so, when it comes to healing, our relationship with food, it is starting to see the difference of external-internal. And that’s where kind of recognizing some of these old food rules oh my gosh, I’m feeling guilty about eating this snack.

And I just realized it’s because it’s 8:15, and I, once upon a time, I heard that it was bad to eat after 8:00 PM. External feeling that guilt. And then at that point, you can go, oh my gosh, that was just a silly food rule I had from way back when I think talked about it in the nineties. And it’s not applicable to me at this moment in time.

And then you move on, but it could also, yeah. Yeah. I think that when it comes to sorting through some of that. It can, when I’m working with people through this process, you feel that. Kind of devil and angel on your shoulder where you’re going back and forth. So, it’s almost like because you were used to giving so much of your power away.

Give me the program, give me the I’ll follow it. I’ll do whatever. Then you’ve lost out on your own autonomy. So, it’s almost like you’re suddenly trying to figure it out for yourself, and you feel like you have a blindfold on, and earmuffs and you are just trying to sort it out, and you have almost no structure.

And that can feel difficult. And that’s why, I guess when we were talking about bored a minute earlier, one of the questions I always recommend people also ask themselves, was I actually hungry? And so, if you’re regularly eating very chaotically, then that can feel difficult to know what is going on.

Although a specific structure, but if you’re, quote-unquote, emotionally eating at 8:15 PM and you had a yogurt for lunch and no breakfast, then let’s not forget that you’re hungry and that you’re again, not committing any crime. Or emotionally eating, you just happen to be hungry and have a certain feeling about it.

Nancy: So, go back to the beginning. And like that, when we think of emotional eating, a lot of times, like for me, I think of bingeing, like I like, it’s an uncontrollable, I’m going to go from ice cream to Reese cups. I’m not necessarily like for me; it isn’t necessarily like I’m going to drive through the drive-through and get.

10 tacos and then go to KFC and get a bucket of chicken. It’s just like I’m overeating.

Erica: It’s all in this range. I see on the spectrum.

Nancy: That makes sense. That makes a lot of sense, but then emotionally, it takes a lot of different, it’s not. It’s also restricting which you talk about, which I would never like that didn’t, which I can look back now in my twenties when I was restricting and my thirties and be like, oh yeah, that was equally heady.

It was equally as bingeing. So, talk to me about that a little bit.

Erica: Yeah. It’s you’re hitting on something important, right? In terms of where people will cycle through different behaviors with food. So, it’s pretty common that we start looking for help with our eating problems. Once we do start bingeing and most people are pretty satisfied with restricting unless it becomes less, it becomes a significant problem where they’re found out by their parents or they’re thinking about food so much that they can’t pay attention in their regular lives, or maybe they.

Get an overuse injury due to malnutrition, or they think too much of their life has taken up thinking about food. But most of the time, yeah, people have a combination of all the above and in the way I do divide, it is thinking about, are you someone that tends to turn towards food when you’re anxious or away from food when you’re anxious?

Because what’s happening biologically is that when we’re anxious, blood is being shunted away from our intestines and we’re in that kind of fight or flight. So, some people, their appetite immediately goes away. And there they are like, I’m not hungry for breakfast. I know I should eat it, but I just can’t.

And then other people are nervously picking or grazing or snacking or eating beyond fullness, but it’s all in a similar. Emotional response. It’s just, it plays out differently.

Nancy: Okay. That’s fascinating. I just think it’s when I thought of that, I was like, oh yeah, and both are, you’re still outside of your yourself.

Erica: It’s not normal. That’s what I say to my clients who tend to go towards restriction and they’re trying to heal their food relationship. You’re like I didn’t feel hungry. That’s abnormal that you typically breakfast and then one day you’re not hungry.

It’s important to check in with yourself. Hey, what’s going on? Why am I not hungry for breakfast? That’s odd. There’s something off here. And I think that’s where the cultural stuff comes in where it’s just going to say that. Yeah. So, praise that restriction that restraint. And so, people have to really talk themselves into going against that because it feels wrong to eat.

When you’re not feeling those hunger cues, but like we were saying, it’s that same level of disconnection, your head and your body are not connected in that moment. That’s why sometimes you go into that trance, and then you wake up and you’re like, oh my gosh, I’m so full. I’m so uncomfortable.

Why did I eat all of those things? But in the moment, you were disconnected until you. Woke up and came present again.

Nancy: Yeah, that’s so true. And I was because I was going to say there’s so much positive for restricting. All the diets are teaching us to restrict, and I have power if I restrict and that becomes a, a power trip like.

If I can do it, then I’m a better person than the person that has no control.

Erica: Absolutely. And everyone who is the type of person that feels out of control, wants to be the person that restricts, but the people who restrict want you to know that it’s just as bad. It’s just as miserable.

Nancy: Oh, that’s good to know.

Yeah, because even yesterday I noticed, I was laughing. I was laughing about it because my reaction to anxiety is usually to graze and yesterday, or the day before they all run together at this point. Yeah. What day is it?

Erica: It’s a day.

Nancy: I was so anxious. I wasn’t hungry, and I, and it was, and because that’s unusual for me, I said to me, I really stopped.

It was like, girl, you got to settle. You are so hopped up that you, your stomach is so there’s so much adrenaline going on that you’re not hungry. And so I was, and because I hadn’t eaten, it was making it worse. Absolutely. And so, it was just spinning. Yeah. And I think that’s just so that again, but because it’s unusual for me, that’s how I recognized it to change.

Erica: Yeah. Yeah. And I’ve actually noticed that quite a bit with my clients is that. If even if they tend to do one thing, a different type of stress, or maybe even a more significant stress will lead to, hey, I usually turn towards food and for whatever reason, I haven’t been hungry at all. Sometimes that indicates that we’re in really unchartered territory here.

There’s a more significant stressor, yeah. That’s just how your body’s responding.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. Because I can remember like when my dad was in the hospital, I didn’t eat, it’s I have to be really extreme, but if I’m just going through life, I tend to the food is what I crave. Yeah. And I know one of my biggest reasons for craving it.

, you talked about the devil and angel, and I talk about the monger and the BFF, and I know you’re familiar with those characters. But my BFF gets is all about the food, go ahead, go through Starbucks, get the crappy Chino, go ahead. Stop at Walgreens, get the bag of Reese cups.

I know on my way to work a lot of times I am like fighting myself. From stopping to pick up food and it’s just purely for the reward. Yeah. It’s that’s all it is. It’s just a little bit of a, I’m being a bad girl. Is that common? What’s that about? Do you have any thoughts on it?

Erica: Yeah, I a hundred percent. It is very common because it’s almost like you do swing between these extremes of okay. So even if you’re somebody who doesn’t tend to restrict regularly. If you’re typically turning towards food, you’re still having restrictive thoughts. The thoughts that say don’t do that.

You better not. Why would you do that again? And that, that monger voice is what is creating that feeling of restriction and that feeling of deprivation. So, we respond to the deprivation with. Let’s go ahead and take care of that. Let’s go ahead and treat yourself. You’ve earned this, and some of its perceived, some of it’s real.

So sometimes it may be, oh, I only ate a little bit for lunch today, so let’s swing through dairy queen on the way home. I really earned it. And then other times it’s just that perception. Where maybe you’re having a negative body image kind of spiral. And so then through that negative body image, you start, the mocker starts to kick into food of, hey, you should really start Weight Watchers again.

Why don’t you just download the app? Why don’t you think about that? And that deprivation that gets triggered it’s it creates you being obsessed with food. It creates more of an interest in food and a desire for the food that you just told yourself not to have. And it’s, ah, that the antidote is to find that kind of neutral observer to both, and really seeing them both play out with each other where maybe the BFS gets transformed into this BFF.

That’s a little more. Calm and compassionate and hey, what do you need right now? And then the longer, we’re disarming a little bit with, like I got you. You’re trying to protect me. You’re trying to help me establish some boundaries. I know I’ve always followed external plans and I’m just looking for that structure again.

And so, it’s like, how can we get them to be cohesive with each other? Without swinging back and forth between the two extremes and in the food healing relationship, we still swing back and forth a little bit. It’s just less intense and less severe of a swing. So, it doesn’t feel so horrible.

Nancy: And that’s, what’s amazing about that is. I don’t even recognize all my restrictive thoughts. Yeah. I’m I, so when you said that I was like, oh yeah. Even I can notice. Because I have, because I think about it all the time. Like I think about the Reese peanut butter eggs that I have down in the cabinet and how much I love them.

And then I’ll be like, no, you can’t have any like that. That’s going back and forth and like in, but one of my favorite things, like I really enjoy, I know I always enjoy having one with my coffee, which sounds. Crazy

Erica: It sounds Parisian, yeah.

Nancy: Little chocolate with my coffee

And so, it brings me a lot of joy and I love it. And so that, but so I can once I realized that I can just have one. And let it go. But it’s the later in the day when I’ve been telling myself all day long unconsciously that then I’m just like, screw it. I’m going in. And I just have, two or three.

Erica: So, might as well. It’s a once you’ve whether it’s broken a perceived rule it’s almost like you said, it builds up throughout the day, how you’ve eaten has become an unacceptable to that Monger part of you. And so, then the BFF steps in and goes we can’t please.

That guy. So, let’s just go ahead and we might as well, or I had one, so I might as well have more. And that’s where I think that deprivation that we felt for so many years of when you were on Weight Watchers and you weren’t eating the thing or all the times you told yourself not to, that is so built up and so strong.

Because even if you’ve been telling yourself I shouldn’t be having the Reese cup eggs all spring, it is almost even if you’ve been eating them, but you’re telling yourself not to have them. It’s like you haven’t had it. The satisfaction is completely wiped out. And that’s hard for us to understand.

So, you think, oh my gosh, I’ve been eating these Reese cups all week, but if you’ve been telling yourself, you shouldn’t be, or you were allowed, and then now you went overboard because I perceived how you did it was wrong. And it just eliminates that. And you’re almost back at ground zero. Experiencing severe deprivation around it.

Yeah.

Nancy: That’s very well said because I’ll sneak them, so my husband doesn’t see, because I’d put my monger onto him that he’s judging me. So, I’ll, he’ll be down in the basement, and I’ll shove a Reese cup in my mouth really quick, which I don’t taste it. It doesn’t have any of the joy, like the morning one does that is no one has ever explained it to me.

That way, the restriction piece that is that’s really the point.

Erica: It is, it’s so hard for those of us that have felt like we have no willpower and we’re eating all the time to even identify with restriction as being the problem. But it is the sole driver. In fact, when I’m working with people who tend towards turning away from food and people who tend towards turning towards food, the treatment is the same.

We are working at it in the same way. Wow.

Nancy: That is fascinating. Yeah. And again, it’s back to the original point. You spoke. Of building that connection with myself to know, what’s really going on here and paying attention to the thoughts all day that are so restrictive because part of them, the other thing and B is that, because I am so was so militant in my twenties and thirties that the idea of someone telling me what to do that when I follow even health at any size people, or I find it frustrating because they’re not telling me what to do.

Yes. They’re just being like, do whatever you want. And that just triggers me all over the place. Is that common?

Erica: Absolutely. Because it’s almost the way I think of it is it’s almost like being thrown into the ocean. With a little life raft and that’s it. And because you were so used to following a plan and then it’s this free fall, and you’re just bobbing in the water, and you feel so lost.

And so, for some people, they may find that learning to eat. And what does enough really look like? So, if you were doing weight Watchers for so many years, you might say, oh the vegetable soup, that is enough points and that’s what I’m going to use for my meal. And so that’s that, but now when you’re learning to eat enough, that may not be adequate.

It may be, having a bowl of vegetable soup with a grilled cheese on the side. And so, you’re learning to eat in a way that’s not restricted and that can feel really foreign. And so, I think. I think we all want to know how to eat, but the point of health at every size and intuitive eating is to figure out what that looks like for you.

And that feels so foreign, because we all experience everyone’s opinion about food or every diet plan or every, nutrition guru has their own method of what, the best way of eating. And even in nutrition research, we’re always, we’re very reductive. We’re looking for, what is, what’s the correlation here and what does that mean?

Does that mean that this is the healthiest food, and we should avoid this one? And so, it’s, you’re really just navigating these waters that have no. They have no chartered path. And so, you it’s normal to feel completely out of control. And it just depends, like some people do find that they need to work with a dietician to understand what their body needs and it, again, it’s a very addictive way.

Let’s make sure you’re having enough. What does a meal look like? Are you eating meals? Are you eating snacks? And just getting back to that, like basic, because it’s not your fault. It gets decided. After following diet plans for so many years, I had a client it’s then I had half of a grapefruit.

That’s not really a breakfast, but it was a breakfast on a diet plan that she followed for years. It’s almost, that’s why I think it’s a lot of that like forgetting what you’ve learned and trying to. Just really start to learn. What does it feel like to be connected to your body?

Nancy: Because that’s, what’s always challenging for me about, when I’ve started, I’ll start doing intuitive eating and the idea of eating, whatever you want. And you’re like, and, but I miss the next step, which is very important, pay attention to how it feels when you’re eating whatever you want, or, like when you actually eat the full bag of Reese cups, but I’m not.

So, I missed that part, but I also am missing the restriction part of the judgment that I’m putting on myself when I’m doing all that. Because it, it sounds fabulous, but it in, but in practice I’m having to unlearn all the patterns that I’ve had.

Erica: Yes. And that’s why the first principle of intuitive eating is reject diet culture.

And that is the hardest one because it, as though, as you’re going through the food healing and intuitive eating process, those diet thoughts keep coming up and up. I usually have my clients start with satisfaction, and that’s learning both from a physical standpoint and a mental standpoint. So, are you eating what you think you should, or are you eating what is going to satisfy you?

And then are you are eating enough to the point where you’re going to feel full. And so, like you’ve experienced, okay. Hey, I’m just eating what I want, and then I feel terrible afterwards because there’s also habituation that kind of comes in. So even if you’re, if you keep going at it with the receipt, Eventually and the idea isn’t to burn out and never want it again, it’s not a punitive thing, but if you ate Reese cups for dinner every night for a week, I would argue that at the end of that week, you legitimately would want something different.

And so, it’s that trust part. And I think it’s hard to. Because we’ve learned like an all or nothing mentality. You’re following this plan, or you’re not following the plan. And so that’s I’m guessing with the Reese cups and that when you felt like swinging back and forth, that is the one that you’ll have to.

Am I being all or nothing? Maybe it’s having a Turkey sandwich and a handful of Reese cups for dinner or for lunch or something like that. And you’re having both, and you’re giving yourself that permission without having to be I’m either not eating the RACI cups or I’m eating all of

them.

Nancy: Yeah. And this, and to be clear, like to the people that are listening, I’m not looking to lose weight like this. Isn’t about this conversation. Isn’t about give me the tips to lose weight. It’s the, how do I heal this relationship I have with food that has gotten way distorted and.

And out of control and I don’t even argue, like out of control would just say it’s gotten distorted. And so, I’m doing a lot more emotional eating that I want to be doing. Because it’s distorted. Yes. And I think that so often when we talk about food and weight loss go together as if they’re the same thing and they’re not.

Erica: Yeah. And that’s what, when it comes to healing your relationship with food and weight loss, we have to set the weight aside, and that’s hard to do, we always want to lose weight well, feel better. All of these things that we think will come will be more worthy. We’ll look better, we’ll be happier or whatever.

And the foundation of nutrition, I believe, is your relationship with food. I believe that is the absolute foundation that anything we’re doing with food has to be built on a solid. Relationship with it. And that way, it’s like how, it’s, how we’re hearing messages, as well. And so, it, that’s why it’s really the most important thing that we can do for ourselves.

If you’re eating all the sweet potatoes and all the kale and all of the tofu, but you’re anxious all the time and disconnected from yourself. Is the cortisol pumping through your body. That’s not good for us either. And so, I think that really bringing those two parts together and focusing on the relationship with food and then the rest will follow.

That’s why with intuitive eating, it’s saying, hey, let’s figure this part out. And then you can talk about nutrition later. And I think, also what you were saying. With, the disordered eating that you’ve experienced it’s as a result of dieting, intuitive eating has over 90 studies supporting it.

And one of the things that we know is that a side effect of dieting for years is binge eating. Overeating higher body mass index. So, it’s a result of, it’s not a personal failure.

Nancy: That is helpful

Because what my monger tells me is, oh, the reason I am so overweight is because I’ve just let myself go. Yes. You know that I can’t control it. Like I used to that if I would. And so, her, messages always go back to being restrictive. You need to go back to Weight watchers.

You need to go back to that, which creates the cycle, as you’re saying.

Erica: And then what other industry do we think that. If you order something in the mail and it comes broken, hey, you guys got to take this back. It’s defective. You don’t say, oh, I must have dropped it on my way coming in.

So, it’s my fault.

Nancy: So true.

Erica: You, we should get some refunds for, diets over the years (laughing)

Nancy: yes. Yeah. Yeah, because I can remember. My best friend was getting married, and I was doing Weight Watchers because I was going to be in the wedding. And I can picture this day as clear as --it was her wedding shower and one of the hosts had made awesome pecan pie.

And everyone was raving about it, but I did not eat it because I was doing Weight Watchers. And at the time, I was so proud of myself, and everyone was commenting on my control and yeah. And how I could do it, that, and I was like, yeah, so great doing this. And the number of times I thought to myself, if I could go back and eat that freaking piece of pie, I would, that just felt so miserable at the time everyone’s eating, I’m not eating, everyone’s giving me these accolades and I’m like, this is stupid.

You’re like a big part of me knew it was stupid, but I kept sticking with it, and missing stuff.

Erica: And that’s where I think the distorted, the restriction, the restraint, the deprivation, that’s where this is all it is eating and dieting and being restrictive and all of these messages that we receive and internalize, they take us away from what really matters.

They take us away from being present. And so, I think, yeah, at the time you were so in it, you didn’t realize that. And then now on the other side, you’re thinking, gosh, I really missed out. And here I am, however, many years later, I’m not going to get some award for having been the most restrained that day

Nancy: It is interesting how you can go back and feel that sense of pride, and that, and, and then you can get into my dad was that way. Like you can get back into all the history of where those messages came from. I always joke that I still eat because I’m still stuck in these patterns as if I was in the nineties.

Yeah. So, I still eat, it’s I went, I was hungry before we got on the call and I was, and I’m trying to eat more protein because I eat mostly carbs because protein was bad. And like I got some ham where you can’t have ham, it has fat in it. That’s one of my weird rules.

Erica: It was low fat for so long.

And now it’s more low carb. Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah. And so, I still eat that way because I’m still following the crazy rules. Yes. Yeah. It’s it perpetuates itself. And so, what you’re saying is basically the same thing I’m saying to my clients is building self-loyalty. Yeah. Yes.

Erica: And that’s what you’re restoring autonomy.

You’re restoring trust with yourself because you, when you’re following the rules of a diet, and then you conclude that you. Failed at it. All of a sudden you don’t trust yourself. I can’t be trusted with food. Oh, I ate that thing, and it wasn’t on my plan. And so now I, again, I can’t be trusted. And so that is really damaging.

Yeah. You’re betraying yourself. And like you said, it’s building that self-loyalty and that autonomy with food. And I think that’s the biggest thing is with; it does come that permission to eat and that genuine permission. And I think that’s where, when we were talking before about your mocker part and that BFF part, and the way you conceptualize that with your clients is, bringing them together in a way that they’ll work with each other instead of.

Swinging back and forth. How does the self-loyalty come in with the BFF and the monger and how could we pull that together with food?

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So would you say that part of unearthing this like moving forward for me personally, since I’ve become the test subject here is bringing those rules to light.

Yeah. Okay.

Erica: Yes, that’s one of the first things that I do with my clients is first we look at, okay, are you eating enough? What is the, do you have a rhythm to eating and do you, but through that process, we’re unearthing the rules. Hey, why don’t you. Bread with lunch. Oh, because I can’t have carbs after 10:00 AM.

Oh, you can’t, let’s talk about that. And so once, once we start going through that, and it’s amazing how actually I’m going to back up, I think the quickest way you can get to your rules is to make a list of what foods are good foods. And what foods are bad foods. Oh. And that’s a shortcut to unearth so many food rules.

And then the more subtle ones start to reveal themselves. Oh, you don’t eat chicken tenders for lunch. What, why other it’s a dinner food really? Okay. You said that (laughing)

Nancy: (Laughing) and that’s how insidious they are. When you say them, they sound wackadoodle, but in your brain, They’re perfectly logical.

Erica: Yes. Once upon a time, a personal trainer, had you weigh your chicken breasts at dinner. And so, it is it’s. So, it’s so illuminating. Once you start to the awareness, you can’t change anything that you’re not aware of when you just feel so stuck.

And so, I love having people write those out, and I have them, beyond good food, bad food beyond, timing with eating. What have you heard about, these types of foods? What have you heard about if you’re moving or you’re not moving and we really get into it and then after they unearth a lot of their food rules, I say things like, is that still relevant?

Do you know that to be true? And so, it’s called wait a minute, fat isn’t as bad as we thought it was in the nineties, it turns out it’s really satisfying. And so, you’re starting to. Once you become aware of them, you start to challenge them and then do things differently. And that I think is one of the things that can unite the BFF and the monger with the self-loyalty is a self-loyalty saying I got this, I’m going to figure it out.

And I trust my body, and I trust myself to sort through it. Sort through these things

Nancy: Yeah. That makes it, so that’s helpful. Just that’s been really helpful. Okay. Anything you would add since we’re going to start wrapping up here, anything you want to make sure people hear when it comes to avoidance and emotional eating,

Erica: working with clients and teaching them, how do you eat enough?

What does that look like for you? And then unearth the food rules. And then we find the morality that exists in that, the shame. And then from there. It’s really them continually checking in with themselves and just getting reset. So, it was like a lot of journaling what’s going on with me and seeing the eating behaviors as an indicator, that something that they’re disconnected in some things off.

So, it’s a really dynamic process that happens over time. And so, I’m almost thinking about somebody knowing that these things don’t go away at night or overnight, and that we can’t like will our way out of them. But the more that you continue to offer yourself permission, The more that you fuel your body, no matter how you feel about it the more that you start to remove morality and the rules that you have around food,

Nancy: love that phrase morality, because it is linked.

It is linked to that. It’s that strong, it’s that strong morality, the shame, the good person, bad person, but the term morality just really shows. It’s not just, I’m a good person. I’m a bad person, but I am like, it defines who I am right. In big ways that I don’t even. I’m not even aware of.

Erica: And that’s what I think when we were talking earlier about the shoulds, I think that’s what it actually is when you’re saying I should do this, or I shouldn’t do this, you’re saying I’m a good person. If I do this, and I’m a bad person, if I don’t do this. And that’s where often, when we say, hey, all foods are good, right?

You’re good. Your body’s good. That’s what we’re talking about. We’re talking about removing that morality because yeah. When you eventually leave this earth people, aren’t going to say, oh, good thing that she had a solid breakfast every morning, remember you for who you are and what you bring to your relationships into your life.

And so, I think it is. It is moving beyond, eating in a certain way to be a certain type of person. And I think that gets into the weight piece. That’s where I think the health at every size comes in is I feel shame because my body doesn’t look a certain way, and people in larger bodies and people not in larger bodies, all feel the shame.

People in larger bodies just have the attic. Microaggressions and discrimination put upon them. So, I think that sometimes can be what’s underneath that too, is if you’re feeling a certain way about food, you’re maybe also feeling a certain way about your body. And that’s another way that they get linked up,

Nancy: Because I even think about that quote, oh, it’s I can’t, I’m not going to come up with this, but then it’s a.

You are not as fat as you think you are. Like she’s talking to this college seniors at commencement, and she’s you’re not as fat as you think you are. And I look back on pictures of myself, and I’m like, wow. I felt as I was beating myself up, just as much as I am now, then, and I’m a much, have much more weight now than I did then, but my mindset was exactly the same.

Yeah. The personal hell I was living in was exactly the same. It is.

Erica: At such a young age. Our fear of becoming fat is internalized, and that’s also called fatphobia. And so, then we carry that throughout our lives. And again, that’s us, really judging ourselves as a person and our value and our worth.

And that’s not just coming from us. Some of that trickles down from society and healthcare and things like that. And that is I think, a deeper part of this work and healing your relationship with food usually. Like you experienced the body image dissatisfaction. That starts first. That is the precept to your relationship with food going awry.

And then the body image, whether that’s acceptance or. Some people are more of a self-love, some people are more neutral. Some people just say, hey, I live in a body, and I take care of it. And I’m glad that I have it. Everyone has different levels of how they approach that. But that’s the last part of this work.

And that’s why we say, hey, we’ve got to set the weight aside. And so, you might be saying to yourself, I may not like how my body looks, or I may be judged by society by the size of my body, but I still deserve. To eat food and I have permission to do so again,

Nancy: back to the self-loyalty piece. Yes.

That’s really what this is all about. That’s easy to say, like that’s the overarching theme and then all these exercises you’ve given us, recognizing the rules, recognizing how, morality plays apart recognizing being a good person or a bad person, and when your monger’s talking versus your BFF, but all of that comes down to how do I feel as a person?

And am I looking outside of myself for the answer versus trusting what my body is telling me? Exactly. Yeah, exactly way easier said than done, but

Erica: Oh gosh, that’s why it is such a, yeah. It’s such a process. I don’t like to tell people when I first started working with them, that it’s going to take years. And it doesn’t mean that you don’t feel better and that you aren’t having these co quote-unquote wins in the process.

But it, like you said, you were in high school. Hey, I feel this, or a lot of people it’s younger as well. And so, you’re trying to change a thought pattern of I’m too big. That’s been going on for how many years. And so, I always invite people to. Have compassion for yourself again, easier said than done because there’s this other part of you.

That’s sick of feeling this way. I don’t agree with this anymore. I just don’t want; I want to stop doing this. I want to stop thinking this. So, this impatience and this discomfort that you want to change, and you’re balancing that with, oh gosh, this has been around for a while. So, it’s going to take some time.

Nancy: Yeah, thanks for saying that. Because it’s very true, but it is also I can see. Now after having this conversation, going back to that, because for me, it started in college when there was so much pressure to look a certain way and go in and everyone was restricting and everyone, like that was the cool thing to do with overworking out and all that stuff.

To go back to that girl there and just pour on the self-compassion, to visualize her in my head and be like, wow, you were trying so hard to do it. And you just got a little lost and how you did it, and so let’s just. Reprogram that, and I like to avoid thinking about her because to me, that’s where all the evil started.

Yes. Yep. And it’s the opposite.

Erica: It’s the absolute opposite. It’s when she first came into contact with this pressure to conform and fit in, and like most people who diet, she came out on the other side with some of the things that she didn’t want to be dealing with as a result of the dieting part. Yeah. And that’s what we’re trying to get back to.

And the food healing process. You’re trying to get back to who you were before food got messed with.

Nancy: Ah, that’s lovely. That’s a lovely place to end. It was interesting when we first started before, I think even before I hit record, you said I love the, some of these conversations are the best when I’m talking.

Yeah. A therapist who doesn’t ha who has some of the skillset, but not much of the skillset, which is totally true. You’re like what happened? Like I’m like, I know what you’re talking about, but I still have a lot of crap when it comes to this stuff. And so, it’s just been really illuminating to me to chat with you about it, to combine, like I know this is.

Not that food is my last frontier because Heaven knows

Erica: a lot of people that can be though one it’s like a slow change.

Nancy: Yeah. It is something I know. I have an issue with that. I have just been like; I don’t want to deal with that. I don’t want to deal with that.

I don’t want to deal with that. And you are today. Have given me and hopefully the listeners some guidance on how to deal with that.

Erica: I hope so. I love talking with people who’ve done work in other areas of their lives because then you’re linking it up with all the positive that they’ve already done, and it just comes together.

Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Okay. So, tell people where they can find you and get information about what it is you’re doing. Yeah.

Erica: So, anyone can find me on my instagram@alignnutritionormywebsitealignednutrition.com and I’m often posting. Really thought-provoking content on Instagram. I’m showing up on stories.

I love getting DMS. I’m in the process of building an online program that comes out next week called realign. And yeah, DME, if you have any ideas or things that you want me to cover, I’m actively creating it right now. And I love to hear from people that really resonate with this type of topic and information so that we can create a solution together

Nancy: And you have to follow her on Instagram, but she is like incredibly responsive and is always on there answering questions. It’s really, I can’t say enough good things and not just because she’s a friend of mine really is amazing. So, thank you, Erica, for taking the time to do this.

Amazing.

Erica: Thank you for having me. So many people deal with anxiety. It gets linked up to food, and this just couldn’t be more important to be talking about.

Nancy: This interview was a game-changer for me in so many ways. Being able to openly share my avoidance issues around food, allowed me to see my patterns in a whole new light.

I am so much kinder now when I reach for the chocolate, and I’m quick to ask myself, what do you need? Sometimes the answer is chocolate, and sometimes I’m surprised because the answer is rest or a conversation with a good friend. Eric has point about the moral issues of eating really struck me as well.

So much of my judgment around food is a moral judgment. It is deeper than just craving sweets. When I’m stressed. It’s about a personal failure. Seeing this in the interview has allowed me to start loosening up this message. I started out this month, wanting to talk about avoiding our anxiety through various means, but I’m finding through each interview that the method we use to avoid also has its own messages from our mongers and from society.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

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Episode 127: Anxiety, Avoidance, and Money

All this month I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. In today’s episode, I talk with Jacquette Timmons a national investment expert and financial coach about money.

There is one thing almost everyone does when their anxiety gets high. 

They avoid. 

Whether through food, alcohol, social media, or money–we avoid. 

All this month, I am talking with experts in these four areas of avoiding. We’re pulling back the curtains on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives. 

We’re kicking this off this month by talking with Jacquette Timmons about money. 

Money and avoidance go hand in hand. Money is a very loaded topic for people in general, but especially those with High Functioning Anxiety. We avoid dealing with our money. We avoid talking about money. We engage in overspending or being overly controlling about money.

All of these patterns come from one place – avoiding our intentions and feelings about money. 

Jacquette Timmons is a national investment expert and financial coach. She is the founder of Sterling Investment Management, a New York-based investment education and financial coaching firm. She has worked in the investment industry for 23 years and conducts numerous personal finance and stock market investing workshops.

This conversation couldn’t have come at a better time. While I think any time we can intentionally talk about money is good, right now, with the current state of the world, this conversation is even more relevant.  

I learned so much from Jacquette in our conversation. We laughed and shared openly and honestly about the topic of money. She has a unique and refreshing approach to money management – one that we can all benefit from to ease our shame and anxiety around money. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why Jacquette’s approach to money management is so unique

• What you can do to ease some of your shame and anxiety around money

• Why we avoid when it comes to money and what we can do about today

• What the role our family of origin plays in our approach to money

Resources mentioned:

• Jacquettetimmons.com

• Twitter: @jacqmtimmons

• Instagram: @jacquettemtimmons

• Coach in Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Jacquette: When you have those moments of feeling shame, you're like no. I don't have to feel shame. I've bumped up against this before and I've come through it and this is how I've come through it. So now you have, something, you can look back to where you can give yourself credit. And I think that's how you deal with the anxiety and the shame.

Nancy: There is one thing almost everyone does when their anxiety gets high, they avoid whether through food, alcohol, social media, or money, we avoid. All this month, I'm talking with experts in these four areas to pull back the curtain on our avoiding ways and how we can make small manageable changes to bring intention to our lives.

We're kicking off this month of interviews about avoidance, talking about money, and avoidance go hand in hand, we avoid dealing with our money. We avoid talking about money. We engage in overspending or being overly controlling about money. Basically, we all have stuff about money and it's a place that we tend to avoid.

Money is a very loaded topic for people in general, but especially those with high functioning anxiety, we all have patterns around money, overspending being overly controlling, or being unaware. All of these patterns come from one place, avoiding our intentions and feelings about them. You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. This conversation came at a great time one because I think anytime we can intentionally talk about money, that's a great time. And two right now with the current state of the world, many of us are very anxious about it. Jacquette Timmons, a national investment expert and financial coach is the founder of Sterling investment management, a New York based investment education and financial coaching firm.

She's worked in the investment industry for 23 years and conducts numerous personal finance and stock market investing workshops. I learned so much from Jacquette in our conversation. We laughed and shared openly and honestly about the topic of money. I'm so excited to kick off this month's interviews on avoidance with Jackie.

Jacquette and I talk about why her approach to money management is so unique. What you can do to ease some of your shame and anxiety around money, why we avoid when it comes to money and what we can do about it. And the role of our family of origin plays and our approach. I am so excited today to have Jacquette Timmons here to talk about money when it comes to how we're avoiding things.

Welcome Jacquette

Jacquette: I am so delighted to be here. Thank you.

Nancy: You're so welcome. Okay, so let's dive in. So one of the traits of my clients and listeners is they tend to be super great planners and organizers, but when it comes to money, they have a tendency to avoid. Sometimes it's overspending, but it's not necessarily overspending.

They just don't have a real, honest relationship with their money. Why is this? And how do you see that trait showing up in your clients?

Jacquette: So I think one of the biggest things when it comes to avoidance is that. People are avoiding things because of what they are afraid to see what they are afraid that they will learn or discover.

And a lot of it has to do with identity. And if you have to confront something. It may or may not affirm the identity that you think you have or want to have and how you spend your money is so connected to that. And so you avoid it because there are either questions you're not yet ready to deal with or patterns of behavior.

You're really not yet ready to change. Or even become aware of the fact that you may need to change them.

Nancy: Oh my goodness. Just as you were saying that my stomach went like blech like that, hit home for me there. Whew. Because it is like a, it's you don't want to touch it. Like it's in this little box that I just want to keep buried there and not look into it.

And I never thought about the identity piece and how we're not. Congruent. Yeah. If I start looking into the finances, then I realize I'm not congruent and that's just too scary to go there.

Jacquette: Exactly. And I think it has to do with people's emotional capacity perhaps to deal with what they may discover that either they realize, oh, because here's the thing, at the end of the day, Yes, we are adults. And we, have gotten to the point where we've had our own experiences and we've made our own choices and we're living out with the consequences of those. And yet we can't discount the impact of our family backgrounds. And that's not to say whether those family backgrounds are good or bad it's to recognize that whatever they were, they have an influence on us.

And a lot of times people think that they are either. Doing the opposite of what they saw growing up and maybe they are, or they think they're doing the opposite, but they really aren't. It just looks different. Or maybe they are doing exactly what they saw growing up. And it depends on what you saw as to whether or not you embrace one of those three modes, but all of it goes back to being connected to identity.

Nancy: Okay. And is that an unconscious choice? Do most people know exactly what it is. They grew up doing what they saw their parents doing, or like they overheard messages of scarcity and fear. And so then they internalize that as messages of scarcity and fear, like how much of a do you think is a conscious.

Jacquette: I think most of it is an unconscious choice. I think it is something positive or something that you want to do. That's a positive response to a negative. So if you grew up where, there was always a shortage of money and now you're in a situation where you're making sure that there's never a shortage of money that would be doing the opposite, you grew up and talking about money was just as common as talking about what are we going to have for dinner tonight? And that's something that you want to continue. So that's conscious, but there are other things that I think people don't necessarily recognize that they are doing. So here's an example, cause I know that can maybe sound a little abstract, but here's an example for you.

Working with one of my entrepreneur, small business clients. And when I'm working with clients on pricing, I have them go through an exercise where it's like, who are the five people that you spend the most time with physically and, or just in general? Cause sometimes distance doesn't allow you to be physical, but you talk all the time.

So who are the people that you spend the most time with and who are the people that spend the most time in your room? And how are those people influencing you? And what, what of those relationships, what about them are energizing? You? What about them are draining you and what this one client discovered was that so much of how she was operating her business had a lot to do with wanting to prove her father wrong, even though.

And even though she was doing financially well, every time she would go home, it was like, oh, that's a good sweetheart. When you're going to get a real job. And that's an example of, sometimes you don't realize the way in which the. The messaging that you got around money and perhaps in that instance, how you earn it and what makes it valuable, you don't realize how it is impacting you.

So sometimes it can be, a conscientious choice and other times I think it's more subconscious, the influence.

Nancy: How do you start packing that, like if there's so much anxiety, like I know for me to be transparent, I got a ton of anxiety around money, lit is just it's literally in the box.

I don't look at it unless I have to. And then when I have to, I do, and then I freak out, then I put it back in the box. How do you start unpacking that?

Jacquette: Little by little tracking. So often when people hear me make the suggestion of tracking money, they think that I am making it for the financial purposes of creating a budget.

And actually that's a nice byproduct, but that's not why I'm asking people to track their money. For me, the purpose of tracking your money is so that you can begin to identify patterns and you can't interrupt a pattern of behavior that you're not recognizing. And so I asked people to track their money so that they can see what are they doing over a period of time, what's driving their choices, so you're not just capturing, what did you buy and how much money did you spend, but you're also capturing, was it something that you wanted or needed? Was it spontaneous? Was it planned? And the whole idea is to track without any sort of self judgment, but to track because you're collecting data. And the whole purpose of collecting that data.

And so that you can go back and objectively assess and ask, what is this data revealing to you? And when you do that, then you can understand what's the pattern when it comes to the things that you are avoiding, why do you avoid it? Who are the other people that might be involved? Is it connected purely to the money or is it the money connected to a person you can just begin to see all of the different connections that might be really useful.

Nancy: Yeah, that is fascinating. So you talk about. The idea on your blog, you said every day, you say something with your money, you can't help it. It's an expression of you. I loved that quote as much as I hate that. That's true. How did you come to that realization and why is that so important?

Jacquette: I'll answer the last part of your question first. Why is it so important? It is important because you, me, everybody, we use our money every day in some form or fashion, right? Whether it's cash, whether it's credit card, debit card, online transactions, online purchases.

And yet just because we're using our money all the time, it does not mean that we know what we have, that we know what we tend to do with what we have or why. And when I make the comment about, you're saying something with your money, every single time you're doing that something again, you're going into your wallet, getting whatever, or going online, you are expressing what's a priority for you in that moment or in general.

You are expressing what your values might be. You are expressing what your expectations are. You are expressing your beliefs, your behavior, your fears, like all of that is coming out. Even if, again, you're not really conscientious about it. And so what I, in that saying, what I'm trying to get people to understand is that it's never just about the money, right?

So you're just paying a hundred dollars for something, be it on your credit card or literally with cash. But there's a lot more tied into that transaction than just the dollar amount. And so what I'm trying to get people to do is to understand the other dimensions of it. And the first part of your question, which was around, how did I get to the realization that it was important is because I think sometimes, especially if we think about the moment in time, when we were recording our conversation, a lot of people don't feel like they have power.

And to me, when you recognize that every single day that you were using your money, that's an expression of something. What it's also an expression of is your power. And you may not like the choices that are available to you to make, but you have the ability to make a choice. And for me, that's a sense of power.

And so it's a way of also getting people to understand that even if you don't like your options, you still have a choice. And embedded in that choice is a sense of power that you don't have to abdicate to someone else that you can reclaim. So getting people to understand that. Yeah. It's not just about the dollar sign.

It's about what it is. Is that a moment helping you to do or what is it. That choice in that moment, helping you to do to me, that's really what I am saying. And I'm also hopefully saying that it can be a reflection of you in that moment, and it can be a reflection of you overall, because sometimes those identities don't necessarily have to be a hundred percent in alignment, but you have to recognize that, what if things were ideal, I wouldn't make this choice.

But they're not ideal. So I'm making this choice and that doesn't mean that who you are in general, like your character, it doesn't mean that you are a bad person or out of alignment with that in the bigger picture scheme of things. I don't know. Does that answer your question? Cause I feel like I went off.

Nancy: It does and yeah, it totally does. And I'm glad you brought up, that we're recording this in the midst of the COVID-19 pandemic quarantine, because I feel like for a lot of my clients, getting, they feel out of control. So being able, especially. We are out of control. It's not even like we're feeling out of control.

Everything is out of control and everything is unknown. And so I'm so glad that we're having this conversation. Cause I think finances is something we only manage when we're feeling well. It's out of control or, like w when, it gets to a crisis point, and now at this point in the pandemic process, we could really start being honest about our money and focusing down on that, and that is something we can totally be in control of right now.

Jacquette: And I also would love to add onto that and just say if someone were to go to my website, the first thing that they're going to see is A counter to our cultural description of how we interact with money. And what I say is that you don't manage money, you manage your choices around my name.

And I think if we focus more on the choice, That also is a way of reclaiming power, regardless of the circumstances, either circumstances that you've created or circumstances that are a product of what you know was completely out of your control, right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yeah, totally.

I'm sure people want to know what's your background. How did you get into this unique way of looking at money?

Jacquette: Yeah. So from an educational standpoint, I do have my MBA in finance and. Yeah, it's really odd to say this, but this is my third crash.

My very first crashed, that I saw was in the crash of 1987, I was a year out of undergrad, as I'd like to say, still green behind the ears, working on wall street, not really understanding what the heck was going on around me, but witnessing two drastically different reactions to the crash.

On one hand, there were people that were really calm. And then there were others that were freaking out. And literally if they could have jumped out of a window, they would have, and I was just fascinated by that. I was fascinated by the extreme reactions. And what was it that they, that one group of people knew that the other didn't and why were they not talking 20 years old?

I'm 20 years old. About to turn 21. And I'm like, I don't understand this, but this is fascinating. And so that was really the scene that got me really interested in behavioral economics and behavioral finance. And it took many years to, figure out how do you get it out of the academic realm, if you will, and have it be more of a table, kitchen table kind of conversation.

But that's really what got me interested in it.

Nancy: That's fascinating because you are like a therapist for finances. Yeah.

Jacquette: Yeah. But the beautiful thing is that I love the reason why I love not being a therapist is because I can be friends with my clients.

Nancy: I know. I hate that.

Jacquette: Yeah.

And clearly when things get real, real deep, I will refer people to yourdomain. The things that are I know how deep I can go and I know when it's time for them to have professional help. Yeah. For, but yeah, it's definitely helping people unpack a little bit of their origin story and helping them.

Identify, what's the story that they now want to tell what's the legacy that they want, their relationship with money to express.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause I think that, and this is just a rant on for my own on my own side. But I think that, so there for a while, there, there was the backlash against the origin story.

Like it was like, I help you move forward. That would be something coaches would say, I don't go in your past. I help you go from here. But man, there's so much in that origin story that we, that impacts us on a daily basis. And if you are not willing to go back there and at least look at some of them, Like you said, the beliefs you got in the stuff you just swallowed whole unconsciously that you're now playing out in your own life.

Yep. It's not to go back there and blame or ridicule or no, it's too early. The unconscious things that are affecting you now.

Jacquette: Exactly. And I think the key word there is not to blame. You're not blaming yourself. You're not blaming your parents or whomever raised you, it's really to amplify your awareness.

Excuse me so that you can make better smarter choices and make those choices from a more fully informed perspective, as opposed to not being aware of your blind spots. Cause we all have blind spots and th the more though we can put a spotlight on those so that we can figure out what do we want to do?

Embrace or not, the better quality of choice, because I think we're also always making choices, but the quality of those choices might be in question. So the idea is to make the best quality choice that you can make.

Nancy: That’s something that I talk about all the time, be kind to yourself, don't judge yourself, like we're just unearthing and looking at stuff, but with money, man, shame and money.

Whew. They go hand in hand. Big time. Raveling, that is just hard. And I love the idea of tracking your money. Like I'm going to start doing that, what to see, to be able to do that, but how can you get past I guess I just have so many blocks around it. How other than working with you, which would be an awesome idea.

How can you just slowly start moving past that shame and giving yourself. The permission that it's okay to do that. This is messy and it's okay to do it wrong. A couple of things.

Jacquette: One journal, I know that somebody might not necessarily have anticipated that answer.

Nancy: I did not.

Jacquette: A few clients, especially those that are challenged with feeling like they deserve their success, that they deserve the financial renumeration that comes with that. I have them journal. And the idea is to really just feel like you're writing either a letter to your money or you're writing a letter to whomever about what happened today with regards to money and.

It's very in alignment with the tracking mechanism, from the standpoint of, again, really reflecting on the conditions of your moment in that of your money, I should say in that moment in time. So if you're journaling every night and you're like, here, what's here. Here's where I not only spent my money, but here's how I felt like just going into a deeper dive than just tracking.

You can get a sense of what was going on for you in that moment in time. And the other thing is that you can have a better understanding of. Where, what are those situations that actually caused you to feel vulnerable? Where are those situations, or what are those situations that caused you to feel a sense of shame or a sense of guilt and who are the other people involved?

And again, The purpose of the journaling is not for you to go back and read it and to beat up on yourself, but it's to go back and read it and identify patterns because you can't, again, I'm going to say this over and over. You can't interrupt a pattern that you do not see. And and I also feel and this is not at all being disrespectful to anyone that subscribes to, saying mantras and all of that.

But I don't think you can think your way through to the other side. I don't think you can mantra your way through to the other side. You've got to do something. Yeah. And so this is part of the action. That gets you to move beyond the same, the shame, because when you do this, what your end, what you end up doing is you end up creating.

That shows you that you've overcome certain things. And that evidence is what gives you the confidence and that evidence is then becomes the antidote, the Ana, the en the antidote to when you, those moments of feeling shame, you're like no. I don't have to feel shame. I've bumped up against this before and I've come through it and this is how I've come through it.

So now you have. Something, you can look back to where you can give yourself credit. And I think that's how you deal with the anxiety and the shame.

Nancy: Yeah. Love. Cause the other thing that all that does is bring the money out of the box. It's very down deep inside and puts it a forefront. In your daily life.

And so you have to, then you're regularly dealing with it, which I think is in the spirit of this month of avoidance, that's a direct way of preventing that of stopping that unconscious pattern.

Jacquette: And then the here's the other thing, right? I know that some people maybe hear the words and they get it and then others hear the words and they don't really embrace it.

But we all have a relationship with money. And one of the things that I will tell people all the time is that it's one of the longest relationships that you want,

Just like any relationship that is of importance to you, of significance. It's multi-layered, it's nuanced, it's complex, it's emotional and it evolves. It does not stand static. So if you think about any other relationship that is important to you, more than likely there are dynamics about it there that are very different today than there were five years ago.

And they will probably be very different five years into the future than they are right now. You will have grown. The other party will have grown. You will okay. Different experiences and that will shape things. And that will change things. And while money may not necessarily be the thing that can talk back at you, it does give you feedback in its own way.

And the way that you also deal with the shame and anxiety is to just understand that, Hey, you've got a relationship with money B, it's not static. It's going to evolve. It's going to change. And then see. You might be having a shameful, anxious moment right now, which is indicative of whatever you're going through right now, but that's not forever.

It's just like when you have a fight with your significant other, your husband, your wife, whatever, a sibling, you might be mad as all get out into that moment. And you might have a right to be mad as all get out in that moment. Hopefully. And when you get paid or the process of getting past that hopefully strengthens the relationship and.

The idea, being that when you have challenges with money, hopefully when you get past that challenge, that's that is somehow giving you some insight as to how you can have a stronger relationship with your money and have it really be in a position where it's doing the things for you that you want it to do.

And I think that also speaks to the whole idea of that. We have to give our money direction. And I don't think we always necessarily operate with that awareness that we've got to be proactive about it. We can't be reactive.

Nancy: What does that mean? Give our money direction. Do you have an example?

Jacquette: Yeah, absolutely.

I think we've got it. Are what its role in our life is, what is its job. And we do that by determining, how much we, how much do we want to save and then practicing the discipline to do that. How do we want to invest? And I have a more broad definition of investing. So it's not just about, the typical definition of building financial wealth, which is important and owning more than what you owe, but also looking at, in addition to financial wealth, social wealth, how are you investing in other people's.

Time wealth is if you had all the time in the world, what would you do differently? Like how would your life be different physical wealth and wellbeing, wealth?

So what are you doing to take care of yourself? What are you doing to take care of your emotions and your mental wellbeing like to meet all of that is a part of the, investing and building wealth spectrum. But money is the part of that. How are you directing money in your life to help you achieve those things?

When it comes to wealth, what's your lifestyle? How is money playing a role in the lifestyle that you want to live? And the really big piece for me is really helping people to show. How they relate to earn from the standpoint of, I think many of us have been conditioned that the way the world works is yeah, you get paid and you make that work, you can take from what you side, what you're going to save, how are you going to invest it? How are you going to spend it? And, oh, by the way, you make those decisions after you've paid your bills. And there's nothing wrong with that. And culturally, we've been doing that for many years and some people are really successful.

But what I want people to begin to do is to say, Actually, no. How much do I want to say, why is that important to me in different dimensions? What's the full picture of how I want to invest it. How do I want to spend it? And then with that begs the question of what do I need to earn to make that happen?

It's a shift, but it is huge. It is so huge in terms of flipping things on its head. And again, going back to the whole power dynamic. There are absolutely things that we don't have control over it, but we can control our approach or at least control us moving. An inch more in the direction of living bore by what I call more by design than by the fault.

Nancy: Ah, I love that because I know so many of my clients just do the default. Yeah. People in general do that.

Jacquette: Absolutely. And that's. Income spectrums it's across the wealth spectrum. Like just because you are a high earner or just because you have a lot of assets that does not make you immune from any of the things we've talked about today, right?

Nancy: Yeah no. Okay. So I can imagine my client, listening to. Podcasts and being like, oh my gosh, I'm going to get control over my money. And so they go to the super extreme of they're going to be, really militant about it and tracking everything and doing everything. And then that gets to be too much.

And so they're like screw it and they go completely off the deep end like that all or nothing thinking. That person that has that.

Jacquette: Hey, slow down, slow your horses.

Slow your roll.

And the whole cliche is that it's a marathon. It's not a sprint. It all applies. It's a cliche cause there's a reason behind it. So more specifically for that person, what I would suggest is you ask yourself five questions, whether you do that weekly, or you do it monthly. The first question is what did I spend this week?

That might be really easy to answer because you might use a tracking app. Where it gets tricky is the second part of that question, which is how much of that was spent toward my goals. I think a lot of people overlook is that the majority of their goals have a financial component to it. And a lot of people aren't really diligent about earmarking, a certain amount of money.

To go toward those goals. So it's one thing to be able to say, oh yeah, I know how much money I spent this week. It's another thing to be able to say. And I know how much of that I, spent toward quote unquote saving for a particular goal. So that's one question. The second question is what, if anything happened if you're doing this on a weekly basis this week, if you're doing it on a monthly basis this month, what if anything happened that caused me to unexpectedly spend money or make a financial decision?

The third question is. What do I have a financial win or a financial breakthrough? And one of the reasons that I, I have people answer that question is because again, culturally, I think we're so focused on our mistakes and our faults that we often don't give ourselves credit for the things that we do well.

So that's an opportunity to reflect and do that. The fourth question is, are you on track? Are you behind? Or are you ahead of your targets? Be it your savings targets or investing targets, your earnings targets, things of that nature. And then the last question is purposefully open-ended and it's anything.

The beauty of asking these questions even just once is that it'll help you to pause. And think about what's going on. The profundity though really shows up when you do it over time and you look at either how your answers change or how they stay the same. And there's a great deal of feedback for you and what in your answers to those questions over time.

So that's how. Benefit from making the commitment to change the behavior, but then also don't do a crash and burn of, having everything be full speed ahead, and then you wear yourself out and then you become distracted and then you don't do anything because the thing of it is oftentimes the only time that we're thinking about money is when there's a bill to be paid or there's a big transaction that needs to happen, or there's a crisis.

What this does is it helps you to integrate, engaging with your money the way in which you would engage in anything else that's important to you, but on a more regular basis outside of it being an emergency or a task, and it keeps it a little bit more on the front burner then as the thing that's on the back burner and you'll get to it when you need to.

Nancy: Yeah. Cause that's what I mean, those questions. Awesome. Because I know for me, back when Starbucks reopens,

that is so like, when I think about I will be driving to work and be like, Ooh, I'm going to stop and get a Starbucks. And, and that Starbucks app is just like from the devil, because it doesn't even feel like you're spending any money. It's just it's on the app. I gotta spend it making a conscious like that.

What happened that caused me to spend that money was I was feeling anxious or I was feeling tired or I just wanted to treat or reward. It was an unconscious action. And so I liked that question in particular, would it would help me focus on. Where am I taking these unconscious actions? Just because it's on an app and I don't feel like it's real money.

Jacquette: So there's that. And I want to be really clear though. I'm not the person that will tell you not to enjoy that latte or whatever it is that you're getting at. I'm not going to tell you, but I think you illuminated the value, which is to raise your kids. Yes around. Why are you doing it? So it's really interesting.

I don't know if you heard about this story? It was a research. Oh God. I think actually I think that researcher recently died too from Harvard Clayton Christianson, I believe was the researcher, but the point of this story is they were doing research on McDonald's. And what they realize is that McDonald's shakes were being purchased in the morning by people who drove to work and had long drive because it was filling and it was easier to eat while they drove.

They were not. As a snack in the afternoon. And when they recognize this, I don't know what triggered the research the reason for the research, but this is what they, this was the like, unexpected discovery. And so when they realize that they change the the recipe. So that the shake was thicker and then they were able to actually charge more.

What they realize is where they thought these shakes were like, for the teenagers after school, on their way, home from school. As an afternoon treat, it was actually the thing that was fueling people, driving to work, meaning to have some breakfast before work. And, it's easier to drink a milkshake as we drive than it is to eat a egg McMuffin.

Right?

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. That is fast. Yeah. Because some days there, yeah. I Just there's some days that I'm getting the Starbucks for reasons other than, like that I need the caffeine or, but when I'm oh, On the fourth day in a row, that's wait a minute. What's really going on here.

And I think that is what you're illuminating. Is that unconscious? Yeah.

Jacquette: Yeah. And exactly all my clients, the apple pay, I gotta be careful.

Nancy: Yeah, it is completely unconscious. Like it's just Mike monopoly money go on going out there. Yeah. And so I love this stuff because it is so applicable in a normal time and also so applicable now. During, what potentially could be some economic downturns coming our way and this, all of this stuff applies to that.

Jacquette: Absolutely. Absolutely. It helps you to, navigate the waters now when things are well, here's the thing. We're always operating with uncertainty, which is why I think it is so fascinating that the market, the stock market anyway is always, behaving when misbehaving, when it's like the market is uncertain, everything is uncertain.

That's always.

To not be flip about it. It is definitely a hyper uncertain time. And given that now is a really good time to take stock. And like one of the exercises that I gave of a client yesterday was, look at your spending for the last six months and look at your spending for January to March of last year.

And just see, where are you? Where are you? And that will help you to forecast and prepare for the next three and possibly six months. If things don't improve the way we would like them to be, you'll be in a position to be more proactive about how you respond, as opposed to just simply reacting.

Nancy: Yeah. I think that's. So helpful. So helpful. The knot in my stomach has gone away in this conversation today.

Jacquette: There's something to go away

Nancy: Seeing that it is an emotional process and, a lot of, and I don't always attach those two together so that it gives me a lot more expansiveness around thinking about it and it doesn't completely. I know some of my patterns, but I certainly don't know all of them.

And so just having, even having the questions really helps me see a way through which really start the process to pull it out and look at it now.

Jacquette: Exactly. Yeah. I, one of the things that I say to people is, your wallet is like a mirror, it's a reflective device. And so if we really do take the time and do that journaling, it's really.

Reflecting back to you a lot of information that you can use and insight that you can use in terms of what you want to change and how you want to change it. Yeah.

Nancy: It's yeah. So where can people find out about you and learn more about you and get out? Lovely resources and potentially work with you.

Jacquette: Yeah. So you can go to my website and that's Jacquette timmons.com and I would invite people to do the financial wheel exercise. It is free and that will really help them in terms of. Connecting with or recreating their financial vision, which is probably needed around right about now. Help you to live more by design rather than by default.

So there, and then I am, as very active on Instagram.

I just get such a thrill because I was such a late joiner to it. And so I'm like, man, I should've done this sooner anyway, but you can just put my name in the search bar. I kept Timmins. And yeah, you'll find me there on Instagram or Twitter or LinkedIn, but I'm really active on Instagram.

Nancy: Okay. This was so helpful.

Thank you. I know this will help a ton of people during this time. And like I said, anytime, so thank you. For taking your time to do this.

Jacquette: It is my pleasure. Thank you so much for having me. I really enjoyed your questions and our conversation.

Nancy: Two things I want to repeat about what Jacquette shared that were huge takeaways for me.

Number one, being non-judgmentally curious about your money habits is amazingly helpful. Even those of you who have a tight control on your own. I believe we can always bring nonjudgmental curiosity to the subject to impact those stories we have about being a good person when it comes to money or doing it right.

The second thing was the importance of small changes, asking yourself the five questions she shared and slowly over time, bringing your money beliefs out of the darkness and into the light. So you can start to reshape your beliefs about money.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

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Episode 126: Setting and Keeping Habits

In today’s episode, I talk with Sarah Von Bargen about setting habits, money, happiness, and about recognizing self-defeating behaviors and taking action on them anyway.

Habit is one of those words I have a negative reaction to. 

Like a lot of people, I have tried to create healthy habits and tried to be super militant about maintaining them, only to fail miserably. 

What are we supposed to do? On one extreme, we have the voice of the Monger who is constantly beating us down for this failure – not exactly motivating – and on the other, we have our BFF who encourages us to rebel against anything habitual. 

So, yeah, the word habit brings up all kinds of stuff for me. 

This is why I wanted to talk to Sarah Von Bargen of Yes and Yes, the “lifestyle blog for smart, funny people.”

Sarah is an expert in setting and keeping habits. She writes and teaches on Yes and Yes about setting habits, money, happiness, and about recognizing self-defeating behaviors and taking action on them anyway. 

One thing that struck me about this interview with Sarah was her emphasis on small manageable changes – the opposite of my old pattern around habits. Healthy habits are not about all or nothing. It’s about habits that are small and realistic and intentionally honoring yourself (all that self-loyalty I talk about). Way less dramatic than my old way of being but far more productive!

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What it looks like to give yourself permission to engage in a non-productive habit

• How to own your time when everyone else seems to come first

• How to tell the difference between caring for yourself and numbing out

• Some approached you can take to decrease your phone addiction

• Why the 21 days to set a habit is BS and how long it REALLY takes

Research and resources mentioned:

• Pomodoro Technique

• Coach in Your Pocket

+ Read the Transcript

Sarah: I think habits are like the unsung hero of many people's successful lives, especially because once you get a habit down, once the name becomes truly habitualized, you can turn your brain off and you're just on autopilot chugging towards a happier, healthier, more stable version of yourself.

Nancy: Hey everyone,

before we get into regular programming, I just wanted to check in and say, Hey, how are you doing during these crazy times? I know from my clients and for myself, anxiety is high and I have been saying, you aren't doing it wrong. If your anxiety is high. You're just being human. So be kind to yourself, go hour by hour, and sometimes it will be minute by minute, check in with yourself, acknowledge your feelings and get into your body as much as possible.

Just so you know, I'm checking in every day on Instagram, live at 10:00 AM and then I'm sharing it on my Facebook and my Instagram. So feel free to tune in there for tips on living with high functioning anxiety, through COVID-19 and for now sit back, relax and enjoy today's episode. And I'll see you on the other side, take care of yourselves.

Be kind.

Today we're talking habits. Habits is one of those words. I have a negative reaction to. I spent so much of my life in extremes around habits, setting a goal to create healthy habits and being super militant about it, motivated by my monger only to fail miserably because our mongers they're not motivating and having my BFF step in and take me to the other extreme of having no habits and rebelling against anything habitual. So the word habit, it brings up all kinds of stuff for me. This is why I really wanted to talk to Sarah Von Bargen, who is an expert in setting and keeping habits.

You're listening to the happier approach, the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane.

Sarah writes and teaches about setting habits, money and happiness on her blog. Yes. And yes, as Sarah describes it, it's a lifestyle blog for smart, funny people. Sarah has a kind thoughtful way of approaching habits that I thought we could all benefit from Sarah and I talk about self-defeating behaviors, recognizing them and taking action, despite them giving yourself permission to engage in a non-productive habit.

How to own your time when everyone else seems to come first. Caring for yourself versus numbing out, decreasing your phone addiction and why the 21 days to set a habit is total BS and how long it really takes.

Sarah. I am so excited to have you here talking about habits and how we are going to be forming habits.

What about habits intrigued you? How did you get into this life?

Sarah: Oh, gosh. I would say like many things that I have found myself teaching. It is something that I came to relatively naturally. And I didn't think what I was doing was noteworthy or a big deal, but I kept getting questions about what's your secret?

How did you do this? How did you pull this off? And I had to work backwards and realize oh, I was able to change careers in a pretty drastic way and become successful in a honestly very competitive field that lots of people drop out of it. Because I built a daily writing habit and then I worked backwards from there.

Okay. Like how did I build my daily writing habit? And that sort of was a light bulb moment for me that I did this thing that has affected my life in huge ways. And I know that can affect other people's lives in huge ways. And I think that it's I think habits are like the unsung hero of many people's successful lives, especially because once you get a habit down, once something becomes truly habitualized, you can turn your brain off and you're just on autopilot chugging towards this goal or chugging towards a happier, healthier, more stable version of yourself. Of course, it, it takes a minute to build that habit, but once it's there, you don't even have to I have a pretty robust morning routine and honestly, my brain isn't even on for most of it. I'm not drawing down my control or my decision making, I just get out of bed and do these series of things because I've been doing them for years.

Nancy: Do you think personality type has something to do with it?

Sarah: I'm sure. Personality type plays into it. I am an I N TJ, I'm an Enneagram one. I'm a Virgo. If any of those things mean anything to you, you can just imagine what my brain looks like. So I'm sure that personality type plays into it, but also a lot of it is honestly like neurology like digging neural pathways, building new neural pathways self narrative. A lot of the tools that you would learn about in therapy apply to this kind of stuff. Literally writing down things with your hand to dig neural pathways. So some of it is personality based, but somebody is also just cited.

Nancy: So would you say it's I keep thinking lately that a lot of it is making a choice. Like it is like you have to make the choice to keep doing it, to rebuild those neural pathways.

Sarah: Yeah. You have to, you usually have to reach a point in your life where you either want something so badly, or you are so frustrated with the state of things that you are willing to engage.

You are willing to change things, and that doesn't just apply to habit, but it applies to everything like ending a relationship, changing the way. You eat the way you move your body, the way you spend your money, the city that you live in, but being willing to make a change and being ready to take the steps necessary is the first thing that needs to happen.

Nancy: So tell me about your favorite personal or work habit and why you started doing it?

Sarah: Oh, gosh, that's a good question. I would say the habit that brings me the most joy is that every morning I read a novel on my sofa with my dog sitting in my lap while I drink a cup of coffee and it feels so luxurious. And so like it just, and I sit next to the window and I usually am reading something. I only read stuff I enjoy. It just feels so nice. Like I'm not rushing anywhere. I'm not trying to learn something that I can apply to my business. I'm just reading a book that I'm excited about while I drink coffee and like the sun rises over the neighborhood. And that's one of the eight parts of my morning routine.

But it's the part that really it really fills me up.

Nancy: . Okay. So that takes me to a big word. Like I could hear a lot of my listeners being like, how do that's so decadent,

Yeah, give yourself the permission. How do I deserve to do that? And they feel like they have to earn that. I'm only going to read a fiction book if I've earned it.

So how do you break that cycle?

Sarah: One of the things that I tell myself and I tell anyone I work with my students, my one-on-one coaching. And I literally have this printed out over my desk. And so this is, and I say this not as somebody who like this came easily to, this was something I had to work on, but you do not need to save happiness.

You do not need to earn. You do not need to put up off. Because I think, especially for, like the try-hard do goodery type A's of the world, which I'm raising my hand. Because I'm right there with you. We think like I can do something nice for myself after I finished this project, I can do something nice for myself after I like drop off that casserole at my friend's house.

After I cleaned the house, after I pick up the kids, after I fill out that spreadsheet. And when we keep putting it off the likelihood that's my half and it's going to be very low. And the other thing that I would say, something that I see happening so often is that when we spend our entire day making decisions managing other people, putting other people's needs before own.

By the time we get to the end of the day, the likelihood that we are going to take care of ourselves in a way that is actually like good is very low. The likelihood that we're going to self-soothe by net watching seven episodes on Netflix by scrolling our phone by eating an entire bag of pizza rolls.

Again, I am raising my hand. Like buying things we don't need. The likelihood that we are going to take care of ourselves in a way that's actually, if we step back and we think what actually makes me feel better? The answer is rarely entire big of pizza rolls. The answer is more like taking a walk with my dog next to the river, calling my best friend.

Reading a chapter from that novel that I liked, but when we have spent the whole day putting other people's needs before ourselves, before us, the likelihood that we're gonna be able to make decisions that are in our best interest is extremely low. So it's much better to do that stuff earlier in the day and do it more frequently to have a release valve.

So you're not making those awesome decisions later in the day, humans actually have, we have a limited, the psychological term for it is ego depletion, but basically what it means is we have a limited amount of ability to make good decisions. And we have a limited amount of self control, and we've all had this experience where we make a bunch of very virtuous decisions and then at 8:00 PM, everything falls apart.

So it's much better. Treat yourself early and often, do nice things for yourself early and often because otherwise you end up burned out. If you all know about Gretchen Rubin's four tendencies, rubric obliger rebellion. So if you are kind to yourself early and often, it's going to be less likely that you are self-soothing in unhealthy ways at eight.

Nancy: So it's like setting the intention in the morning. Yeah. Puts you in that head space of First I'm loyal to myself first.

Sarah: And one of the things, and this is going to sound like, oh, how could this possibly be effective? But I swear to God hand to God, this works.

One of the things that I tell. My students. So I teach a class about money and it's going to seem like where's the parallel here? But one of the things that I teach my students is on Sunday night, I want you to look at your calendar and I want you to plan two to three, lovely kind, enjoyable things for your week.

I want you to literally put them in your calendar, whatever, in your Google calendar, I'm in your paper planner, literally put your DM in your calendar. And keep your commitment to yourself to do those nice, lovely things that are going to fill you up. Because if you have things that are fun and lovely to look forward to, you are much less likely in the case with my bank, new students, you're much less likely to overspend on things you don't need because you know where your money and time and energy are going.

And we get 30% of our enjoyment from an experience from anticipating it. If we've all had this experience. Like I know my husband and I are going out to a really nice restaurant this Friday night. I already know what I'm going to order. I know what I'm going to wear. I know it. I know like it's like a 20 minute drive and I want to swing by this cute boutique on the way there.

I'm really excited. That experience is gonna be totally different than if it's 6:00 PM. I like was like, oh God, I don't want to cook. And like seamless over some, fun from my neighborhood Vietnamese restaurant. It would cost probably about the same, but the experience is totally different. So when you plan those lovely things into your week, you get more enjoyment out of them.

You are less likely to self-sooth in an unhealthy way. And again, because of the personality type of the people that you work with, you're actually. A better partner. You're a better employee. You're a better parent. You're better at everything because you're filling your own cup. I'm sure. I'm sure you talk about all the time.

You can't pour from an empty cup, right? Yeah.

Nancy: I love that. Especially the idea of, of looking forward to it, and the, and the idea, I was talking with someone else last week and we have people say to us so what in your life brings you joy like that? Is a buzzword question, and then I'll say, oh, like walking the dog or reading or going out to dinner with my husband.

And they'll be like no, like really? What are the things like as if my answer isn't good enough.

Sarah: Yeah. As though it has to be like, I only experienced joy when I'm standing under the Eiffel tower. No, there are so many things. And I think if we take a minute to step back, like literally in your daily life, when you're feeling happy, I have it.

I have it. In the notes app on my phone when I'm doing something that makes me happy. I have an, I have a note and ongoing note where I just take note of oh, being in nature by myself. Having lunch with friends on a weekday, going to a mat. And then I literally just add it to my notes app.

So then I can have a toolbox to draw from.

Nancy: Oh, that's awesome. Yeah. Going to the movies, movie matinee. That's like my favorite.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. It makes me feel so smug about my life choices. Like Tuesday, 2:00 PM. Look what I'm doing. And I go to a second run theater and so it costs literally two dollars what can you buy for two dollars, these days.

Nancy: Yeah. That's awesome. Okay. So the other thing I've heard you on a different podcast, and I don't think this was your phrase. I think it was the interviewer's phrase, the owning your time. And so the similar in the vein that you were just talking about, so many of my listeners are caring for everyone else in their lives, even in that sandwich generation where they have parents and the idea of owning their time feels impossible because they have so many pulls on it. How do you start owning your time when it feels like everyone else is owning it?

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Wow. That is, oh, I have so many thoughts about this. One thing that I would say is owning your time is going to be something it's going to be an ongoing process.

It is going to require some honestly kind of tough conversations, which I know can be difficult for, for this personality type. It's not going to be something that's ever perfect and you're going to get pushed back on it and something that I tell myself that I tell my students, I tell my coaching clients all the time is it is okay to say, no, you are allowed to say, no, you are allowed to disappoint people.

You are allowed to redirect people. If you want your time on this earth to feel the way you want it to feel. Yeah. You can't spend the entire time meeting everyone else's needs. And I know that is hard. I know it's hard to say no, I cannot make a cake from scratch for the church bake sale. I know that it's hard to say no, I don't want to drive you.

I don't want to drive my child, an hour and a half to that birthday party. Like I get it. It's totally hard. If you want you have to make some hard choices and you have to have some hard conversations. A tool that I use in bank boost, which again seems, this is my feel like a strange parallel, but we have a tool that I call the uncomfortable chart.

I encourage people to make moves, to do 20 uncomfortable things over the course of a month. And in the, within the confines of bank loose, it's about 20 uncomfortable things that will add more money to your bank account, but honestly it can apply to anything. And what I think is important is it's not about the outcome of the uncomfortable thing.

It's about the fact that you did it because. It is allowing yourself to be uncomfortable, allowing yourself to stand up for yourself, to advocate for yourself to say, no, it is a muscle. And the more you use it, the better you will get. And so it is literally a chart where I have if you're listening, you can't see this, but I have, I literally have gold foil stars that I put on my uncomfortable chart.

And, you can make something like. On a piece of paper and stick it next to your desk. Anytime you do something that makes you uncomfortable, like saying no, like redirecting someone like making somebody like disappointing someone, put a star on that chart and right next to it, what you did, because I promise you your life will change if you start to be okay.

With being uncomfortable.

Nancy: Oh my gosh. I love that. That's such a great way of thinking about it and doing it differently, like practicing it in a way that's not just set a boundary and speak your needs, but I am going to practice being uncomfortable because that's the bottom line. That's what it is.

Sarah: Yeah. And I think that so often we only want to give ourselves credit when there are some sort of like really cool end result. Like we only want to give ourselves credit when that magazine like accepts our pitch, or we only want to give ourselves credit when our kids on the honor roll.

But the fact is it takes lots of different attempts to, to reach those goals. And we deserve credit for making those attempts. Honestly, there's a limited amount that we can control in the world. Like you can't really control your kid's grades. You can't really control your parents' health.

You can't really control your bosses decisions. You can only control your own choices, your own efforts, your own interactions, but why not give yourself credit for making those efforts? Yeah, it was really uncomfortable to tell him to tell my coworker that I didn't want to come to her mom party.

It was really uncomfortable to tell my kid was super. Upset when I was like, no, I don't want you to drive you across town, in a snow storm to go to your friend's house. So give yourself credit for doing that uncomfortable stuff.

Nancy: I always tell clients they're allowed to be upset, like you're, your kid is allowed to be disappointed.

You don't have to swoop in and fix that. And that is something that a lot of my clients want to. They feel it's their responsibility to make everyone else okay. With their decisions and recognizing no, they're allowed to have that response and I'm allowed to have mine and we can move on with the day and they will get over it.

Sarah: Oh my gosh. Yes. Disappointment is not fatal. Yeah.

Nancy: Okay, so this is a question that I'm like picking your brain personally. Something that a lot of my clients deal with is the kind of the all out, I, we go all out and then we crash. Yes. And then the all out burnout cycle and So how do you know if you're wasting time or if you're just being lazy?

Sarah: Oh gosh, that's a really good question.

Nancy: Like if you need it, like I need the rest, so I'm going to versus I'm being lazy.

Sarah: Really good question. I would say so a few things. One is I. I know for myself let's say that I have been invited to an event. And like I'm tired and the weather's kind of bad and I'm feeling like, I don't know.

If I decide not to go to that event and the feeling that I feel is relief. That means I'm taking care of myself. If the feeling that I feel is shame because I'm like backing out on something that I said I was going to do. That means that I'm not necessarily making the right choice. And I know that not everybody's brain works like that work like that.

And some people are always going to feel shame regardless, but that is something to think about. I think a lot of it also just starts with like really knowing your body. Knowing your brain, because I think most of us, if we pay attention our bodies, are you getting a headache? Do you have a stomach ache?

Are your shoulders up around your ears? Like your body is probably telling you like, okay, it is time to take a break. And the other thing that I think. I know that there is, if I'm truly in like recovery mode, like currently I'm sick and I'm trying to get better. And it is easy. This sounds strange, but it's easy to like for me to relax.

I don't want to say wrong cause that's has a judgment on it, but there's a difference between being like, I'm sick, I'm going to steam myself, I'm going to take a bath. I'm going to put on my comfiest pajamas and sleep. I'm going to watch one of my favorite movies.

That's different than like laying on the sofa and watching seven hours of Netflix. And so I think if you say that you're relaxed, Are you truly like doing things that are going to make you feel better? Like maybe, stretching a little bit foam rolling, like drinking some camomile tea or are you quote unquote relaxing by scrolling your phone for two hours?

Cause that's not actually relaxing. And I know, and that's, a podcast for another day about relaxing sort of wrong. But I think that's something worth checking in with yourself. Because we all need downtime, but are you actually giving yourself downtime that makes you feel better?

Or are you just like numbing out? Cause those are two different things.

Nancy: That's so well said because it was interesting this past. I wrote that question this past weekend when cause I've have gotten in the habit. Friday is my day off and I've gotten the habit of spending all day, Friday, most of the Friday, watching TV and playing some stupid game on my iPad and like totally cut off.

It is what you're describing as not helpful. It's not nurturing. It's not, it's just over and over again. And so I told myself this weekend, I was like, Stop playing the game. I'm doing one thing. The play in the game where I'm watching TV, I can't do both. And oh, it's been so amazing.

Sarah: Yes. It feels so much better.

Nancy: Yes. And then I get sick of TV faster because I'm like engaged in it. And so I've moved on, but it is that's, me recognizing like some of this is a choice. Like you are you're just unconsciously going through your day.

Instead of being intentional about how do I want to spend my day off? And sometimes I do want to completely shut off my brain, but I don't need to do that for the whole freaking day.

Sarah: And you can also completely shut off your brain. But I would say it's especially with phone use and TV watching, there's a point of diminishing returns, and you can shut off your brain and other ways, like going for a walk, taking a bath, reading a nonsense book, napping, going to a matinee of a silly movie.

There are plenty of ways to shut off your brain, but I would say. Watching Netflix for seven hours is not. And also yeah your back's going to hurt from laying on the sofa.

Nancy: exactly. Yeah. It has some, diminishing returns for sure. And I know you've been very intentional, which I love about your phone.

What are some of the ways you've decreased that obsession?

Sarah: Yes. So one thing is I charge my phone. Upstairs. So like I work down, I work on the main floor of our house and so I charged my phone upstairs. So it's just out of sight, out of mind. I, and where I charge it is not next to my bed. So there's no option for me to wake up and immediately look at my phone.

So one of the things I teach in habit school is make it easier to be quote unquote, good and harder to be making it easier, to be good and hard, to be bad. And of course, obviously in quotes there about cooking bad. Obviously, there are all sorts of things we can do emotionally, psychologically about temptation, but just make it easier to not pick up your phone.

So charge it or store it out of sight. I don't do this, but I, if somebody really has a phone addiction make it gray scale movie apps that you want to be. Completely delete the app. That's not an option for you. Move it off the home screen and put it in a folder that says something like, are you sure there are a bunch of apps that you can install on your phone that track your phone, use that block you from using certain stuff?

The thing that I do that I have found incredibly helpful is I simply. Unfollow Instagram accounts that aren't triggering for me or make me feel less then if for some reason I feel like I can't unfollow them because it would be, it would make some sort of relationship awkward. I mute them. And the other thing that I do is in my explore page on Instagram, I go through and I will mark either.

I don't want to see this. So if I say something that's really like diety or very, like a 22 year old influencer, who's like a millionaire with a six pack. Like I don't want to see that. So I mark that as I want to see less of that. And then I will also think about what do I do?

More of one of the things that I talk a lot about with my coaching clients is you want to corral evidence of what is possible. What is the thing that you are working towards? What are the stories you're telling yourself? I can't have that. I can't do that. And then you want to find evidence on Instagram that's possible.

So let's say that you are in your late thirties, early forties and you were trying to get pregnant. And you're feeling really that's really hard and sad. Are there Instagram? People who you can follow, who have done that successfully. If you are training for a marathon, can you corral evidence of other people who are doing that?

If you are, you're trying to start an Airbnb, can you follow people who have done that? So fill your Instagram feed with people who are doing the stuff that you want to do, or having the success or achieving the goals that you want to achieve, who are also, and also with as much as possible, like within your demographic, because if you are a 45 year old, stay at home, mom who lives in rural Oklahoma, like falling, a 22 year old influencer who lives in New York, who's doing that might not be that helpful.

But if you can find people who are closer to your demographic who are having the success and achieving the goals that you want to achieve, it can be incredibly hard. To see if this is possible for them, it can be possible for me as well.

Nancy: I love that. Yeah. So again, back to that intentionality of setting yourself up for, yeah.

Okay. So now I want to switch to the idea of self-defeating behaviors. That you talk a lot about, so walk us through your process for identifying self-defeating behaviors and then how we start reversing them.

Sarah: I always pretty much with everything that I do, I always like to start with one at a time, because the truth is most of us have 75 self-defeating behaviors.

Like we have a lot. So let's try to find what is the biggest pain point? What is the thing. That you are doing most frequently, that is putting distance between you and what you say you want. And so this might look like spending money. You shouldn't be spending eating things that are bad for your health being in contact with friends or romantic partners who you shouldn't be in contact with numbing behavior, buffering behavior, drinking more than is healthy for you, that kind of stuff.

So if you can identify what is the one. Let's start with one, one behavior. And then something else I think is really important to understand and acknowledge is that, and that can remove a lot of shame around all of this is that every behavior is a need trying to be met every self-defeating behavior that you are engaging in at some point in your life.

That behavior made sense. So if you are. And I'm not talking about alcoholism because obviously that's a whole other thing, but if you drink more than is healthy for you more than you want to, maybe that started out in college when you were a little nervous socially, and it was a way for you to fit in and then you move to a new city and it was way for you to connect with your coworkers.

And now your peer group doesn't really drink as much, but you're still engaging in that behavior. So I think it's also really important to approach this stuff. Like without shame and understanding. There was a reason that you did that and at a certain point in your life, like honestly made sense you're at a different point in your life and now we're ready to change it.

It doesn't mean that you're bad. It doesn't mean that you are not smart or that you're lazy. It's simply things have changed. And I also tell people all the time is like some of the most famous, successful people that, Oprah has struggled with eating Obamas. I don't know if he still does, but he smoked.

Larry, I think it was Larry King has declared bankruptcy multiple times. Like some of these behaviors, incredibly smart, successful people struggle with this stuff all the time. It doesn't make you less than to struggle with this. So number one, start with it. Start with. One, what is your biggest pain point number two realize that every behavior is in need trying to be met.

And number three, I would say what we want to do is try to figure, and of course the self-defeating behaviors, they have multiple triggers, but again, if you can find the most common triggers. For a self-defeating behavior, you can work towards changing your response to that trigger. It is very hard to change a trigger, but you can change your reactions to the trigger.

So again, working with the example of drinking more than you want to, maybe one of the triggers for you is socializing. So then you can decide. Okay. My friends, my coworkers have invited me to happy hour. I can either not go to happy hour. I can go to happy hour and I can order seltzer. I can order an appetizer.

I can order a Coke. And also if you are comfortable that you can tell your coworkers, Hey, I'm trying to drink less. So if if you see me ordering a beer, call me out on it. Yeah,

Nancy: I like that. Cause I think, especially for that example, W was one of mine that I was trying, and I, so I stopped drinking for a while to try to get that under control.

And it was the idea I, and I was doing, it was the socializing was a big part of it. And then having something at the end of the day, like I liked having a fancy drink at the end of the day. And once I figured out that it was the fancy drink, it didn't matter that it was a glass of wine. It was just that when I'm done with my day, I need something that signifies the end of the day.

Yeah. So that could be an NAB or that could be a juice with seltzer, in a fancy glass. It doesn't matter. But yeah. And it also was getting, having the experience of doing a bunch of social situations without drinking to know that I could do it.

Sarah: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And something that, I think something that I teach my clients as well as something that I call a choice.

Which is I don't try to encourage anybody to go cold Turkey to go from having seven cocktails to only ever having seltzer. But what is one choice up that you could make? So like instead of having four drinks, could you have three instead of driving to target and buying $200 worth of stuff, could you drive to Goodwill and buy 20 bucks of stuff?

What is one choice up that you could make? Something that is. Slightly healthier because for the most personality types going cold turkey is not sustainable. And then you fail and then it reinforces your narrative that you're not good at this. Yeah. Yeah. And it is challenging.

Nancy: I think too. I think a lot of my clients struggle with that idea of that.

If I can go, I still won quote unquote, by going to Goodwill and only spending 20 bucks, make sure you celebrate that win that you made a different choice.

Sarah: . Yes. Yes. And also like you are allowed to take imperfect action in the direction of what you want. Like you do not if you expect yourself to only ever make perfect choices in the direction of your goals and your habit change you're really gonna struggle.

And it's it's okay. It's okay to maybe the habit you're trying to build is going for a 30 minute run seven days a week. You can still give yourself credit for going for a 30 minute block or a 15 minute run. If you are holding yourself to impossibly high standards, the likelihood that you're going to fail and fall off the wagon is very high.

Nancy: So I want to talk about 21 days to create a habit.

Sarah: So that's why, and this is one of the things that like, this is a soap box that I climb on top of. If you've ever read a women's magazine, if you've ever read like a listicle, this is a factoid that's just bandied about honestly, pretty irresponsibly the statistics.

And this is backed by Sociologists psychologists, psychiatrists. It actually takes closer to 65 days to change a habit change from 12 days to 265. And it varies from person to person and have it to have it. So let's say that it took you 65 days to build the habit, to floss your teeth. That does not mean that it's going to take you 65 days to build a workout habit or to build a writing habit or to build a meditation habit.

It, and this is people don't want to hear this, but I think it's so important to know that if you built a flossing habit in 65 days, it might take you 200 days to build a meditation habit, or, maybe it could take you 12. But again, when we set these unrealistic expectations for ourselves, we are so much more likely to fail.

And when we fail and then we start telling ourselves a story I'm not good at this. I can't change. I'm not good at habit change. I should just give up if we are literally making it harder to succeed in the future, because we're strengthening this narrative of what we can and cannot do.

Nancy: So in the 65 days, or just to pull that randomly, is that some of that is the imperfect action.

Sarah: Yes. Yes.

Some of that is failing. Yes, absolutely. So one of the things that I teach in my course habits, school is something that I call a bookmark habit because the parts of my brain, the part of my brain that makes long-term decisions that are in our best interest is different than the part of our brain that makes decisions in the moment.

We've all had the experience where like in the moment, the part of our brain that makes the decision. It doesn't want to, for us, it wants to buy the things that's on sale. It wants to eat the whole bag of pizza rolls. It wants to text our bad news acts. It wants to order three cocktails. But the part of our brain that makes longterm decisions is the part that can say you said you didn't want that.

So I always tell people ahead of time. Let's say you're trying to build the habit of working out every day. So what are you going to do when you're traveling? When you're sick, when the weather's bad, when you have car issues and you can't drive to the damn gym, what is your bookmark habit? What is the sort of the light version of the habit that you can engage in when things are not ideal?

Because if you can come up with that ahead of time, then it's basically a contingency plan. So you already have this plan in place. So then when the weather is bad, Or when you are sick, you have a solution to turn to, instead of just not doing it, because when we don't do it, the likelihood that we're going to give up and fall off the wagon and then reinforce that negative narrative is very high.

Nancy: So give me an example of a bookmark habit for like the working out.

Sarah: So let's say so for me, I walk my dog every day from eight 30 to nine. And that is, I do other stuff, but that's sort of one. Yeah. Bigger workout things. And if it is really cold because she's a little dog, she doesn't want to be outside for half an hour.

We will just do a short walk. If I am sick, I will do something inside during that same time period. Okay. And when I am traveling, I still go for a walk in the morning. I obviously don't have a dog. I don't, I'm not, on a timer. Sometimes I go for a walk at 10, if I'm on vacation, but I still go for a walk in there.

Recently, I usually, I walked it off from eight 30 to nine, but a few weeks ago I had a podcast that I was recording that was at eight 30. So that wasn't an option. So I walked, I took her for a super short walk. I think it was like two blocks. It took seven minutes, but I still kept my promise to myself and I still stayed on the wagon.

I didn't, I didn't tell myself the story that I don't have time for this. I also know myself well enough to know that if I say. I'm not going to walk her now. I'll walk her in the afternoon. That's not going to happen. I know that if I need to walk her, it needs to happen in the morning.

And sometimes I don't walk or sometimes it's just me walking myself because putting her in her snowsuit and putting Musher's wax on a project, it's too much of an endeavor. So I just walk away.

Nancy: So it's not only the commitment to the activity. It's the commitment to the time.

Sarah: Yes. And that's for me some people, that's not an option because of the realities of their schedule, but that's an easy way to do it.

This time has been blocked off for this activity and maybe I can't do the activity in that exact way, but I can do something related to that actually.

Nancy: Okay. That is interesting. I like that. So as I'm creating the habit I'm not, I'm also, I'm in this example, I'm creating the time I'm creating the habit, but am I, do I have baby steps or are my all in.

Sarah:

You mean? Do you start out like not working out, like you work up to work more? For me, because this is literally just walking my dog, so it's not hard, but I wouldn't say let's say your habit was going to the gym. What I always tell people is the habit is going to the gym.

We're not talking about taking it super, like taking a hit class. We are not talking about whaling on your glutes for 45 minutes. The habit is going to the gym. Keeping your promise to yourself is going to the. Sometimes you can go to the gym and literally walk on the treadmill on the slowest pace for half an hour or sit in the hot tub.

But we are building the habit of putting on workout clothes and getting yourself to the gym, swiping yourself in and being there for a set period of time. And then once you've got that habit, once you've done that, and you're keeping your commitment to going to the gym, then we can start worrying about, arguing.

What are you doing when you're there so much? I think a lot of people are so resistant when I tell them that because they want to dive into, going to the gym five days a week and then really going hard out. That doesn't work. Like y'all can try it, but it doesn't work.

Nancy: Because as you were describing that about going to the gym and just, going to the hot tub or just swiping and like my stomach started going, oh oh, that sounds no, I want to do it whole hog. But no, that makes a lot of sense.

Sarah: Yeah. And like you can there's no, I'm not saying that you can't go whole-hog but allow yourself. Go whole hog on Tuesday and then on Wednesday, go and sit in the hot tub and on Thursday, be on the treadmill and then on Friday, go whole hog again. But it's about keeping your commitment to yourself.

And again, and also like any physical therapist or trainer will tell you, like going whole hog seven days a week is not actually good for your body. Like you need recovery.

Nancy: So it's so in that example, my habit is I'm going to start trying to build the habit of going to the gym. And then I get that habit.

Like I go to the gym, I do my thing. Then I'm trying to build the habit of going 30 minutes on the treadmill.

Sarah: Yes. Yes. And I would also say you probably want to do, you don't want to go to the gym and sit in the hot tub seven days a week. Like you want to do something, but I think ultimately people will get bored sitting in the hot tub seven days a week, but just start out by Really cementing that habit and something else that I tell people too, when they're resistant to this approach is the time is going to pass anyway, your life is going to continue anyway.

So why not do this slowly? So it works because when you ask so much of yourself and you push yourself so hard, the likelihood that you're gonna fail is very high. If you have 20 years left of your life or 40 years left of your life or 50 years left of your life, why not do it slowly and get it to work?

Like what's the rush? Do it right. Do it slowly build these habits that can last for the rest of your life, rather than doing this feast and famine sprint and fail thing.

Nancy: Yeah, that's so true. And I really like what you said about honoring the commitment to yourself. And that's what this is about.

Like I'm going to the gym, not because I need to go whole hog, but because I made a commitment that I want to be working out more and that I feel better when I do and all that underneath the habit. Yes. Cause sometimes my listeners get really stuck in the, check it off the list instead.

Sarah: Yes. Yeah. And you can check it off the list that you went to the gym, even when you just worked on the treadmill for 30 minutes, like you're allowed to check that off.

Yeah. Cause that's the habit.

Nancy: Yeah. Yes. I love that. That's a thank you for walking us through that because I think that's was helpful. Okay. Then my last question for you is just because my listeners absolutely love systems and they have a belief that if they find the right system, everything in their life will be perfect.

Which I know is a myth, everyone out there but I want to hear about the Pomodoro technique that you use.

Sarah: Oh my God.

So if you are not familiar, the Pomodoro technique is you monotask, which basically just means doing focus, work for twenty-five minutes, and then it's and you get five minute breaks. And during the break you do something that is unrelated to the other task that you were doing. So maybe. So it is not spending 25 minutes writing emails and then spending five minutes on Facebook.

It's 25 minutes on emails, five minutes, taking the laundry out of the machine or 25 minutes working on a presentation five minutes, like going and getting a coffee from the break room. And something I would also add knowing the personality type of your listeners is that it can be very tempting that like when you're in flow, When you're in the zone in that twenty-five minutes and think, oh, I'm just going to keep going.

The timer went off and I'm going to keep going, resist that urge, because I know what I have found with myself when I do that, I will work really focused for maybe an hour and a half. And then I am completely 100% burnt out, burnt down to a Frizzle, and I can't do anything else for the rest of the day.

Cause I've overworked. So really take those breaks. Because when I do that and when I take those breaks, I can sustain really focused work for hours at a time. Whereas when I just do some huge stretch where I work without any breaks for two hours, the rest of the day is useless because I'm so burnt out.

Nancy: Cause I, when I've done this, I totally agree. Cause I've definitely, every time I hit the 25 minutes, I'm like, oh, I'll just keep going. And and you're right when I have done that it bites me in the butt, but sometimes I find that the five. Like I'll go down to do laundry. And then I get, it turns into 10, 15.

Sarah: Yep that definitely happens. And sometimes depending on the situation, sometimes I'll be like, you know what? Like I need to finish. I've put the laundry in the machine. I'm not going to leave. So sometimes I will finish it, but it just depends on the thing. And sometimes I'll, I'll have a spend my five minute break doing like stretches or cleaning the kitchen where it's something I can just abandon when time is up.

Nancy: And is this mind brain chemistry scientific neurologically how we work?

Sarah: Yes. Yes. Because the amount of time that we can spend in a focused task I think, I think humans can actually spend more than 25 minutes, but sustaining. Over the course of, seven, eight hours that is quite difficult.

And the other thing that I do that I think can be helpful for your listeners is when I have my to-do list for the day, I do not write like finish sales page or, finish that presentation. I say, spend two hours on that presentation and then I'll write four little circles for four Pomodoros.

And then I will color them in as I complete them because we often lovely. We're often very wrong about how much time we think something will take. And if we say, if we set the goal of finished that sales page, and then we don't finish it, we feel terrible. But if we S if we set the goal of spend two hours on that sales page, we can do that.

We can say yes, I kept my promise to myself. I spent two hours on that sales page. I love that. Cause that's so freaking true. Oh my God. Yes. Oh my God. It takes, it really takes me about a week and a half to write a good sales page which I learned the hard way, because I would, set the goal for myself to finish my sales page, in four hours.

And that is not how it works,

Nancy: no, not at all. So is there a resource you'd recommend to learn more about Pomodoro.

Sarah: I would say just Google it. And it's not much more complicated than I just explained. I know that their app, you can download and stuff and there's a website, but honestly I just have a timer in my phone.

I have two timers that are saved. One that is 25 minutes and I use a little emoji of a laptop with that timer. Okay. And then I have a five minute timer saved and I think there's like a person walking for the emotive.

Nancy: Okay. That's awesome. Okay. So now tell me about where my clients can find you, how they can work with you, all that good stuff.

Sarah: Yes. I am most active on Instagram. I'm on Instagram stories every single day. My website is yes and yes. Dot org. I have been blocked. For God, 11 years. So there are literally thousands of blog posts in the archives. So anything you want to know about like money, habits, goals, mindset, there's stuff in the archives about it.

I have several online courses that I run make it to Cabot school. There's a self-paced version of that, that you can. Sign up for it at any time.

Okay, Sarah, thank you so much. This was really helpful and just I'd love to pick your brain. So it was helpful.

Sarah: Thank you so much for having me.

Nancy: It was helpful for me as well as my listeners. So that's awesome. The one thing Sarah kept repeating over and over was small manageable changes the opposite of my old pattern around habits.

They are not about all or nothing. So first we need to change our way of thinking that to create a habit. We have to do something big and permanent and forever. Creating healthy habits is about being intentional, honoring yourself, all that self loyalty I talk about and making them small and realists. Be intentional, be kind and make small, simple commitments to yourself.

That is way less dramatic than my old way of being, but far more productive.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST). Learn More

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Episode 125: Acknowledging Feelings When They Don’t Seem Appropriate

In today’s episode, continuing the deep dive into feelings. Today, I am going to explore what to do when your feelings just don’t seem appropriate.

When my mom told me she wouldn’t be visiting for Easter this year – choosing to visit a friend instead – I experienced a flood of emotions. 

I immediately felt disappointed and sad.

Easter isn’t a big deal in our family – we don’t even go to church – but I was still looking forward to seeing her. I was bummed. 

And then my Monger started sounding off: “What’s the big deal? She’s allowed to go to visit her friend, and it isn’t like you are a deeply religious family or anything. You are so uptight and rigid! This shouldn’t make you sad.” 

The rest of the day, when I would feel sad or disappointed, the voice of the Monger would swoop in and tell me that my feelings were irrational and I would feel terrible about myself.  

But here is the thing: feelings happen. It doesn’t matter if the feelings make sense or not. You are still having them, and that is more than okay, no matter what your Monger is telling you. 

Today, we are continuing this month’s deep dive into the F word. In episode 119, I introduced the topic of Acknowledging your feelings as a key part of reducing anxiety, and last week, I addressed 2 of the fears we have about feelings. Today, I am going to explore what to do when your feelings just don’t seem appropriate. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• What happens when we don’t give ourselves permission to feel and confuse the natural response of acknowledging our feelings with demanding a behavior change.

• How it is a myth that if we feel sad that means we have to take action on that feeling

• Why the idea of”‘changing our thoughts” or “fixing our mindsets” never works

• How when we have High Functioning Anxiety we learn to compartmentalize those feelings, putting them in a box deep inside, never seeing them again

Research and resources mentioned:

• The Feelings List PDF

• Episode 119: Acknowledging your feelings

• Episode 124: The 2 Biggest Fears About Feeling Your Feelings

+ Read the Transcript

My mom won't be here for Easter this year. She's visiting a friend instead. This shouldn't make me sad. I mean, Easter isn't a big deal in our family. We don't even go to church, but regardless I told my husband, I'm just sad that she isn't going to be here for Easter. I mean, I know that's just silly. My husband interrupted me and said, "So what if it doesn't make sense? That's how you're feeling."

It does drive me crazy when he uses my own words of advice against me. But this time, it was exactly what I needed to hear. I took a huge exhale and smiled for the first time that day.

You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

After my mom announced that she was headed to visit a friend for Easter, I immediately felt disappointed and sad. And then my Monger stepped in. "I mean, what's the big deal she's allowed to go to visit her friend. It isn't like you're a deeply religious family. You're just so uptight and rigid."

My Monger was off to the races calling me too sensitive, too rigid, too traditionalistic on and on and on the rest of the day. When I would feel sad or disappointed, she would swoop in. I admit it; even now, I'm a little embarrassed to share this story with you. My Monger is still hammering me for being too sensitive, but here's the thing.

And this is what I want to explore on today's episode feelings happen. As my husband said, it doesn't matter if it makes sense or not. It's a feeling. Today, we're continuing our deep dive into the F-word. I talk about acknowledging your feelings as a key part of reducing anxiety. And in episode 119, I introduced the topic last week.

I address two of the fears we have about feelings. And today, I want to dive deeper into this idea of feelings when they just don't seem appropriate. When we have high functioning anxiety, we learn to compartmentalize those feelings, to put them in a box deep inside, and never see them again. As I said last week, not only have you buried your feelings, but you take a lot of pride in the fact that you can control your feelings, that you don't let your feelings run amuck, like those needy emotional people who can't control themselves.

Yep. Again, that's a common refrain of our BFS. We do it better because we can control our emotions. Or so we think, but in reality, those feelings come out via our anxiety, anger, frustration, and passive-aggressiveness. The truth is it's not about the feeling. The feeling is a natural response. My sadness and disappointment about mom not being here for Easter is just that it's a natural physiological response.

The problem is that in our society and in our high functioning anxiety brains, we've linked that feeling too. If I feel sad, that means I have to take action on that feeling. That is a myth. We do not have to take action on our feelings. All we have to do is acknowledge they're there and soften it. I can acknowledge the sadness and give my mom a big hug and be thrilled for her to go visit her friend.

Both can be true just because I'll be disappointed that my mom won't be here for Easter. It doesn't mean that anything about her Easter plans needs to change or that she needs to feel bad for going to visit her friend, or that I need to feel shame for feeling sad and discipline. This is the part we get mixed up.

We mistakenly believe that if we acknowledge the sadness, then we need to fix it. We need to do something to not feel sad anymore. Nope. Sadness is a natural response, and when we can acknowledge it and soften into it, we can get to the other side so much faster. Here's what we tend to do. And definitely what I would have done in the past.

My mom announces she's not going to be here for Easter. I feel sad and disappointed and then tell myself to get over it. As the days and weeks go along, I keep telling myself to get over it. Don't be so sensitive. She's a grown woman who can make her own choices, blah, blah, blah. Then right before Easter, she's talking about her trip, and I say something passive-aggressive, like, "Must be nice to be traveling over the holiday. We'll certainly miss you as we color eggs." Or maybe I might even be more indirect and just complain to my husband over and over and over again about how my mom is ditching me for Easter. And it becomes this very big deal. When in reality, it's not. Often I will talk about having a 10 reaction to a two situations when our Mongers are running the show, and we aren't acknowledging our feelings. We will take a benign situation and blow it up to be huge.

So the situation with my mom goes from being simply disappointed to questioning whether she really loves me at all. This is what happens when we don't give ourselves permission to feel when we confuse the natural response of acknowledging our feelings with demanding a behavior. Okay. So what if this is a situation where I do have a response?

What if instead of Easter, which is a minor holiday for my family, it's Christmas, which is a major holiday for my family. What if my mom decided she wasn't going to do Christmas? Again, I would acknowledge the feelings, sadness, disappointment, anger, and confusion. Then, I could step back and react after acknowledging those feelings.

I might decide to talk to mom and hear her thinking behind ditching Christmas. Since I had given myself permission to feel the sadness, disappointment, anger, and confusion, I can relatively calmly listen to her side of the story. And we can figure out a way around it. Maybe she wants to ditch Christmas because she feels unappreciated, or it's too much. Or she just wants to go somewhere warm. Whatever the reason, when we can allow our emotions and recognize that our emotions don't dictate our behavior, we can have a much calmer discussion. The power of acknowledging our emotions is why the idea of changing your thoughts or fixing your mindset never works because all day Sunday, I was trying to change my thoughts and fix my mindset.

I kept telling myself to be grateful for all the years. I had Easter with my mom to give her a break. She can do whatever she wants, and it's just a thought that I want to spend Easter with her. None of those mindset ideas worked until I acknowledged my feelings until that moment in the car when my husband said, so what I hadn't softened into anything.

I was so busy trying to unsuccessfully change my mindset. Once, he reminded me, I had permission to feel and that it wasn't linked to my actions or behavior. I was able to see the whole situation differently. I didn't have to convince myself that I was wrong or that mom was right. Both could be true. I could be sad.

She could go to California, and the world could keep turning grudges drama. Passive aggressiveness is caused by shaming ourselves for our feelings, trying to jump too quickly into changing our mindset, or thinking that having an emotion means we get to react to it. Recently I was watching the TV show Tommy, which is about the first female LAPD chief.

At one point, Tommy's daughter confronts her and says, there's always going to be a part of me that wishes my life was more important than the 4 million citizens you keep safe. And I know their lives are more important, but as your daughter, I wish you put me first, and I feel selfish and embarrassed saying that, but there it is.

And Tommy, her mom, who's played by Eddie Falco, smiled and hugged her and said, thank you so much for saying that. Honestly, I appreciate you sharing it. I loved the scene because the daughter shared all the messiness of feelings, the irrationality, the embarrassment, and her mom just listened. She didn't get defensive.

She didn't start drama or get petty. They both recognize that having a feeling does not mean there needs to be an action or reaction. Sometimes it's just about acknowledging the feeling in all its messiness. I think one of the things we hate about feelings is. They're out of control. They're a major unknown.

So my challenge to you is to own that own, that they're messy and scary. We spend way too much of our time running from them. And all that is doing is causing anxiety. So let's try it a different way. Let's lean into those biological responses rather than futilely pretending they just don't exist.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 124: The 2 Biggest Fears About Feeling Your Feelings

In today’s episode, I wanted to bring back Abby and hear how she implements A.S.K. when she realizes she doesn’t have enough hours in the day.

Here is a common scenario in my world: I had a lot to get done – back-to-back client meetings and deadlines looming. My anxiety was through the roof!

I kept telling myself, “you need to acknowledge your feelings,” knowing that it helps when I am stuck in anxiety. But it wasn’t working. I kept coming up sad and overwhelmed. No matter how many times I tried, I wasn’t getting any relief.

At the end of the day–-meetings over, deadlines met – I was still spinning with anxiety. I realized I had gone through the whole day without really feeling anything. Every time I had gone through the motions of naming my emotions, they were quickly hijacked by my Monger saying, “Feeling sad is a waste of time. You don’t have time for this nonsense. Move on and focus!”

This is a common experience for many of my clients. We shame ourselves for feeling our feelings. We tell ourselves that we don’t have enough time for them, that we won’t get anything done by feeling things. Or, worse, we fear that allowing ourselves to experience our emotions would open up a bottomless pit of despair that we would never be able to find our way out of. 

In today’s episode, I want to dive a little deeper into the F word. I talk about Acknowledge your Feelings as a key part of reducing anxiety. In episode 119, I introduced the topic, but today I want to dive a little deeper and answer some of the questions that I receive from clients and listeners about feelings. 

Feelings are a big part of my coping strategy around my anxiety. Allowing my feelings and facing them has been a game-changer for me. I KNOW the fear that doing this will open the flood gates, that all the feelings will come out and overwhelm. So, in this episode, I address some common fears about acknowledging your feelings.

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to allow your feeling even when you are afraid that it will lead to overwhelming despair

• How to acknowledge your feeling when it seems like that will just add to the stress you are already experiencing

• How our feelings don’t just go away if we ignore them but will show up in other places

• How acknowledging our feelings isn't something you have to DO because it is something your body naturally does – you just have to give yourself permission.

Resources mentioned:

• The Feelings List PDF

• Episode 119: Acknowledging your feelings

+ Read the Transcript

I had a lot to get done. Client meetings, a number of deadlines to make my anxiety was through the roof. I kept saying to myself, you need to acknowledge your feelings because I know it's so helpful for me when I'm stuck in anxiety, and what kept coming up is sad and overwhelmed, but that wasn't working.

It wasn't giving me any relief. No matter how many times I tried. At the end of the day, meetings over deadlines hit and still spinning with anxiety. I realized I hadn't really felt anything. I'd gone through the motions of acknowledging my feelings, but every time I named them, I was quickly hijacked by my monger saying, you don't have time for this feeling.

Sad is a waste of time. Move on and focus. Finally, I realized I hadn't really acknowledged my feelings. I had just named them. And then my monger had shamed me for them. So again, I tried to name my feelings, and I had another major aha. This time when I named them, I actually allowed them rather than shaming myself. My biggest fan chimed in and said, whoa, it's just so hard to feel sad, especially when you don't know why.

Almost immediately. My shoulders dropped. I got a little teary just from feeling the compassion and kindness. And then I moved on with my evening. Yes. Earlier in the day, I was naming my feelings. Yes. I was saying them out loud, but what followed was my monger saying, well, that's not appropriate. That is ridiculous.

How can you be feeling that way? So I wasn't actually acknowledging and allowing my feelings. I was saying them and then slamming them down with criticism and judgment. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships.

I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith. This idea of shaming ourselves for feelings, not having enough time for them, or telling ourselves we will enter a pit of despair and never get out. If we feel anything is common for not just me but many of my clients in today's episode, I want to dive a little deeper into the F.

I talk about acknowledging your feelings as a key part of reducing anxiety, and then in episode 119, I introduced the topic, but today I want to dive a little deeper and address two of the fears that clients talk to me the most about when it comes to feelings. As I was writing the happier approach and doing my research on quieting the Munger, I realized the importance of allowing your feelings.

I'd always given lip service to this idea. I mean, I'm a therapist by training, but personally, in my own life, I would run from feelings, push them down, channel them into work and let my anxiety run them. Now feelings are a big part of my coping strategy around my anxiety. Allowing my feelings and facing them has been a game-changer for me.

And I know the hesitancy, the fear that you'll open up the flood gates, and all the feelings will come out and overwhelm you. So let's address some of these common fears about feelings, fear, number one. Okay. You say to allow your feelings, but I'm afraid if I feel my feelings, I will be lost in a bottomless-pit-of-despair.

Man. Oh, man. Do I understand this fear when you've spent most of your life packaging up your feelings, sticking them in a box, bearing that box deep inside. The idea of letting these mysterious sensations into the forefront is scary. Not only have you buried your feelings, but you take a lot of pride in the fact that you can control your feelings, that you don't let your feelings run amuck.

Like those needy emotional people who can't control them. Yep. That's a common refrain of our BFS. We do it better because we can control ourselves. So my first pushback is really, are you in control of your feelings because feelings might not be showing themselves, but all that pushing and burying is exhausting.

So frequently, we are exhausted with headaches, stomach problems. We have lots of anxiety or depression, and we are big fans of numbing with alcohol, food, exercise, TV games, et cetera. Not to mention that we tend to push those closest to us away because true intimacy comes from vulnerability. And when we're cutting off huge parts of ourselves, there is no vulnerability.

So no, you don't have this feeling things mastered. You just think you. Imagine you're standing on the 50-yard line of a football field to your right is the end zone for team-bottomless-pit-of-despair. And on your left is the end zone for the team-I-got-this. If you start in team-I-got-this in the end zone, and you allow yourself to acknowledge a feeling.

And even if you start crying, In response to your sadness, you will have only made it to the 20-yard line. It might feel like you're almost in the bottomless-pit-of-despair end zone, but you're still 80 yards away. The chances of you getting to the bottomless-pit-of-despair end zone is highly unlikely.

The truth is you're not wired to be someone who swims around on your feelings and gets stuck there. It's just not your way. So when you start tapping into a feeling and things come up. Remind yourself that you are nowhere near the bottomless-pit-of-despair, even though it might feel like. I remember the day we found out my dad had dementia.

My first response was to research everything I learned as much as I could about his illness. I figured the more I knew, the more in control I would be. The challenge was they don't know a lot about dementia, and there were many, many unknowns after I'd researched as much as possible. I poured myself a glass of wine and started calling people to share the news.

I called my best friend and shared the data of what was happening. No tears, no sadness, just data. And she responded with the appropriate. Oh my goodness. I'm so sorry. And I responded with, I know this is huge. I can't believe it. And went into the research that I'd found and the data. No feelings, no sadness. We hung up the phone.

I poured another glass of wine, and I sat alone in the kitchen for a minute before I decided to call another friend. Again, the same thing, no feelings, just data, same shock response. Hang up, sit alone, start to feel, rinse and repeat. And when I ran out of close friends, I pour myself another glass of wine, and I reached for the chocolate, telling myself I was engaging in self-care.

In reality, I was letting my BFF run the show, stay hopped up, numb out. Don't feel anything. In my mind, I was doing what I should be doing, reaching out, asking for help sharing my news. But in reality, I was delivering a news report. I was telling people so I could avoid the quiet it wasn't asking for help.

I wasn't letting people in, and I wasn't being vulnerable. I was sharing data each time I told someone it hot me up more. It pulled me out of my feelings and into my anxiety. So I had some wine to offset that anxiety. If I could go back 12 years, I would do it differently. I would still research because I love to research, and it helps me feel in control.

But this time, I would say to myself, wow, this is hard. Oh, sweet pea. This sucks. So many unknowns, so much out of your control. And this is your dad. You're larger than life, Dad, who is going to slowly lose his mind. His worst fear is coming to reality. Allow the tears allow the fear, allow the doubts because by allowing those feelings to be honest with my experience, I wouldn't get stuck in anxiety or solving the problem or doing something I could take action from a calmer, more loving, kind place.

I remember the first time I really allowed the feelings at an inappropriate time. I was driving to work, and I heard a song that reminded me of my dad, and I started to cry. My normal response would be to say, stop crying. We don't have time to deal with this. I was standing at the 20-yard line of the, I got this end zone, scared as hell that if I shed a tear, I would run the 80 yards into the pit.

Get it together. I told myself I could feel the pit in my stomach as I tried to push everything into that box. And then my biggest fan popped in and just whispered, just let it happen. So I did. I cried big ugly gasping tears as I drove to work, telling myself over and over it's okay.

And then, two minutes later, it was gone. The pit in my stomach was gone. My tears dried up, and I felt a huge relief. It worked this whole acknowledging the feelings thing. I got to work popped into the bathroom. Assuming I would look a mess and was shocked to see that I looked fine—no makeup streaming down my face.

It was just me and my sad eyes looking back at me, allowing the feelings feels foreign and uncomfortable, but in the end, it leads to much, much less anxiety and drama. The next fear I hear a lot is I'm stressed out all the time. I need to get out of my feelings, not feel more. So here's a story from Emily.

Someone I recently worked with, Emily, has had a tough year. Her ex-husband harps on her about every little thing when it comes to the shared custody of their sons, her company is going through some restructuring there. So there's a lot of unknowns in the workplace, and her mom's breast cancer just recently returned.

She is overwhelmed, to say the least recently. I mentioned to Emily that she needed to feel her feelings. And her response was, "I have no problem being angry and sad. I'm the first to share all the hard times I'm going through and complain about them. I feel like I get stuck in my feelings. I take them out of my kids. I feel stressed out all the time. I need to get out of them, not have more of them." To which I thought to myself, you do a great job of justifying your feelings and replaying the events that leave you feeling stuck, but you don't ever allow yourself to feel anything. You just intellectualize.

I used to be just like Emily; I would feel stressed and then spend the rest of the day justifying why I was stressed, listing off all the stressors, but never allowing myself to soften into the anger, sadness, and frustration.

Just replaying the things I was stressed about over and over and over. I would argue that Emily wasn't feeling anything. She was simply naming all the bad things in her life. She wasn't allowing herself to feel them. She wasn't owning her anger or giving herself a chance to experience it. She would just label the event that justified her anger and move on.

When we spend our time justifying and intellectualizing our stress, we are dancing in the shallow end. Think of it like entering the ocean. And the water is chilly. As you wade in and you stand in the shallow end, and the cold waves keep splashing, you. You just stand there getting slapped by the cold waves, never actually getting in the water.

Similarly, when we replay our wrongs, we just keep getting hit with the cold waves. But when we wade in all the way in and immerse ourselves in the cold water, when we allow the anger to come over us and feel the pain completely. We will feel better when we soften in to what is happening head-on. We can assimilate and find relief when we accept our anger. It dissipates when we accept the cold water and allow our body to adjust it dissipates, but standing in the shallow end saying how cold the water is. It doesn't feel good. And it doesn't.

Recently, Emily sent me an email. She shared how she did end up losing her job. The company was downsizing, and she was one of the casualties. Emily came home from work and was devastated. She called her partner for support, and he immediately jumped into problem-solving mode, remembering our conversation.

She stopped him mid suggestion and said, "You know what, today? I just want to be pissed off. I just want to be angry because this sucks. Tomorrow I will solve the problem. Today, I'm just pissed." As she was telling me this story, she said, "I was shocked that came out of my mouth, but I did just want one day to be angry."

This is acknowledging your feelings. Emily allowed herself to feel angry because she was legit angry in her email. She shared how skeptical she was about the process but how much better she felt? I didn't feel like a victim like I thought I would. Feeling the anger empowered me. I was amazed at how much it helped.

Acknowledging your feelings isn't something you have to do. It's something your body naturally does. You just have to give yourself permission. So the next time you notice yourself listing off all the negatives in your life, ask yourself, how does this make me feel with each response? Just allow yourself to soften and give yourself some empathy and kindness, such as, oh, that sucks. Or, oh, sweet pea. And then ask yourself again. How does this make me feel? At first, you might have to ask yourself multiple times before you soften into the actual feeling. This process allows you to move past the shallow end and swim into the deep water. Riding those waves. It's life-changing. Here's what I know to be true about feelings.

Feelings are messy. They're individual. Each person experiences them, deals with them, and faces them differently. Feelings are legit. They are biological responses to what's happening in our world. Feelings can't keep us stuck, but our thoughts about our feelings can, and if we don't feel our feelings, they will show up in other places.

They don't go away if we ignore them. When we stay hopped up in our anxiety, we miss the colors of life. We miss the nuances, the connections, the experiences, the feelings. I know feelings are messy, and I know we hate messy, but when you can trust yourself enough to allow this natural process, your life will shift, and your anxiety will decrease. Envision yourself, standing on the 20-yard line and looking way down the field at the bottomless-pit-of-despair, and remind yourself, I'm 80 yards away, just feel.

---

Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

---

Episode 123: Helping Women Design A Life They Love While Avoiding Burnout

In this episode, I chat with Rebelle's Shannon Siriano Greenwood who went through burnout–she hit her rock bottom and was able to climb back out. But her story is far from simple. It isn’t wrapped in a bow and it isn’t a song and dance number.

We have all heard this story: 

A woman has hit rock bottom. She is burnt out and is experiencing her dark night of the soul. Cornered by life, she feels like she has nowhere to turn.  

And then, miraculously, she has some major ah-ha moment–lightning strikes and everything is fixed. Birds sing, everyone breaks out into song, and the struggle is gone.  

I used to be addicted to these transformational stories. 

These stories gave me hope that permanent change was possible. That one day I would be healed. I would be perfect. 

The truth is, these stories of sudden transformative change keep us trapped and miserable. They feed us the lie that if we are still it is because something is wrong with us. They tell us that we haven’t suffered enough or that we haven’t been good enough to be transformed.

My guest today, Shannon Siriano Greenwood, went through burnout–she hit her rock bottom and was able to climb back out. But her story is far from simple. It isn’t wrapped in a bow and it isn’t a song and dance number. 

Shannon is the founder of Rebelle, a membership organization that brings together women of diverse backgrounds and industries, and Rebelle Con, a boutique conference about wellness, money, community, and creativity. Both of these programs grew out of what Shannon learned going through her own dark night of the soul experience. 

Shannon is committed to change and to mental health as an on-going daily practice. As you will hear, some days she nails it and some days she has a lot of room for growth. 

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• Why Shannon’s friends and family did not say anything even though they thought she was pushing too hard

• What Shannon learned about support and friendships and the struggle to make friends as adults

• How to manage your energy as an introvert when you are trying to build new relationships

• How to set boundaries when you have not only a fear of missing out but a fear of hurting people

And what Shannon tries to do on a daily basis to help her striveaholic ways

Resources Mentioned:

• RebelleCon

• @ssiriano
  

• @rebellecon

+ Read the Transcript

Shannon: And yeah, it took so much to slow me down, which is why I recognize just how deep seated this compulsion to hustle and be doing really is for me and I am hopeful it's not to that extreme for most of the people that I encounter. But I think coming from such an extreme case, it makes me that much more empathetic to how challenging it is to stop hustling when that is your mode.

Nancy: We've all heard the stories a woman goes through burnout, woman hits rock bottom woman goes through a dark night of the soul, has some major ahas. And she says, I am healed. Everything is fixed. Birds sing. Everyone breaks out into song and the struggle has gone. I used to be addicted to these transformational stories.

They gave me hope that permanent change was possible. And that one day I would be healed. Perfect. I now know that this hope was false. In reality, these stories keep us trapped and miserable because they feed the lie that if we're still struggling, it's because something is wrong with us. We haven't suffered enough, or we haven't been good enough to be transformed.

My guest today Shannon Siriano Greenwood did go through burnout, but her story was far from simple and wrapped in a bow. You're listening to the happier approach. The show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace in relationships. I'm your host, Nancy Jane Smith.

Shannon Siriano. Greenwood is the founder of rebel, a membership organization that brings together women of diverse backgrounds and industries to share and learn from one another and founder of rebel con a boutique conference that brings speakers from across the country on such topics as wellness, money, community, and creativity.

Both of these programs grew out of what Shannon learned. She needed the most after her dark night of the soul experience. Shannon does an amazing job of sharing what her story taught her about the changes she had to make in her life and how her commitment to her mental health is an ongoing daily practice.

As you will hear some days she nails it and some days she has a lot of room for growth. Shannon and I talk about her story of burnout, not just that transformational story, but the nitty gritty details. Why her friends and family did not say anything, even though they thought she was pushing too hard.

What Shannon learned about support and friendships and the struggle to make friends as adults being an introvert and how to manage your energy when you're trying to build new relationships. Saying no and setting boundaries when you've not only a fear of missing out, but a fear of hurting people and what Shannon tries to do on a daily basis to help her striveaholic ways.

Shannon. I'm so excited to have you here and to get your insights into letting go of the striveaholic in all of us or working on letting go of the striveaholic.

Shannon: Thank you for the clarification.

Nancy: (Laughing) That's why this is going to be a good one for people.

So I just want to hear you talk about how you're helping women navigate, designing a life that they love while avoiding the cultural pitfalls, telling us to hustle more and ride the edge of burnout. Would you say that's accurate?

Shannon: I would say that's the goal.

Absolutely. Whether I'm successful or not is not really any of my business. Exactly. But absolutely. The whole reason for my business. And the work that I do was my own experience with burnout and the fact that while I was burning out multiple times in my life no one, really saw anything wrong

Nancy: oh, isn't that telling?

So I want to hear that story and not from the pretty looking back. Here's the bow. Oh, I learned all these things, but from the nitty-gritty. What was it like being in it? How did you recognize it? How did you not recognize it?

Shannon: You don’t just want my hero journey. (Laughing)

Nancy: No, I do not. (laughing)

Shannon: I guess I'll give you the real story.

I burned out multiple times in my life and I think the most recent one was the most grand of all of those were announced. And sadly for me to even be aware of what it was, it had to be super grand. I have always, worked very hard. That's a value that my parents would probably say is one of the things they're most proud of me for how hard I work and how I'm willing to do what it takes to get the thing done.

These are all, Good qualities if in control, but not when, out of control, which is, how it actually works in real life. Let me paint the picture for what my life looked like. I worked a full-time job that I absolutely loved as the director of marketing for this really fun restaurant nightclub entertainment venue, but then I had the entrepreneurial itch.

So I started a business on the side, which was a boutique cycling studio so spinning. So this is before boutique fitness was really a huge thing. So it was definitely a risk at the time. Put my own money into this business, but started the studio. It was going really great. And then three months into me working full-time and running this business on the side, I got pregnant with my first baby.

Nancy: Oh wow.

Shannon: And I was teaching four fitness classes a week.

Nancy: Oh my gosh.

Shannon: Managing all the things. And I was used to piling it all on. So I just thought when I have this baby, I'm just going to strap him on and keep doing all these things. And so even what's funny to me is other mothers, knowing what it's like to actually have a human being like come from your body and then take care of it and keep it alive. No one questioned me. They all looked at me and saw me as this totally capable person that can handle more stress than the average person. And no one gave me any because for pause.

And so had this baby strapped them on, tried to keep doing what I was doing and obviously it came to a screeching halt. When I was suffering from postpartum depression brought on by all of the things by doing way too much and overextending and not taking care of myself and just having, the hormones and actual chemical things that go on in your body after you have it.

So I started having suicidal thoughts and I would walk around my neighborhood and pray that a car would hit me and think about in detail what the angle, it would have to hit me, but not hit the stroller. And just going through this mind, I was like, all right. If I see a car, like how close do I need to be?

Just also I was, really like thinking through it a lot. And even that wasn't a flag for me. Okay. So I just thought, all right, I just need to reorganize my life. So I quit the job. I was like, I can't do both. I'm just going to do the business and the baby and teach and that's too much.

It's just too much. I still didn't feel better.

Nancy: So wait, let me pause. You recognized, so you recognized it was too much.

Shannon: I recognize it was too much, but not a problem. This is I just need a new system so I can figure this out.

Nancy Totally. Okay.

Shannon: So this is how high functioning I am. And so then I'm like, you know what, still not happy.

I think it's this business. I'm not getting along with my partner. I think if I get rid of her, then I'll be okay. And, our partnership dissolved and ended up I ended up leaving. She kept the business. So quit the job. Sold the business decided that I'm keeping this baby because I did grow him and I'm an energy, so I'm gonna keep him, (Nancy Laughing) but still just total mess and would just have bouts of crying for hours and hours.

And again though, no one around me saying Shannon, these are signs that something really bad is happening. And so it wasn't until I was at the pediatrician with my first baby, he had a little cold, nothing bad. I am at the pediatrician sitting in the lobby, hysterically crying, just openly weeping, convulsing and crying.

And I had this light bulb I've never seen anyone else crying like this in public ever.

Maybe something is going on. (both laughing)

Maybe I should take this recommendation of a friend and find a therapist or a doctor. And yeah. It took so much to slow me down. Which is why I recognize just how like deep, deep seated this compulsion to hustle and be doing really is for me and hopeful it's not to that extreme for most of the people that I encounter, but I think coming from such an extreme case it makes me that much more empathetic.

Really how challenging it is to stop hustling when that is your mode, right? Yes. Yeah. Yeah, so that's my not beautiful story.

Nancy: I love it. So do you think you would have heard them if the people would have said anything?

Shannon: No I think I was in such denial of what control I had over things, it was just a problem that I needed to fix for myself.

No one else had the answer or advice or anything that I needed to hear.

Nancy: But I think it's interesting because it is, it wasn't that they didn't care. It wasn't that they didn't notice it was, she has this, like you had convinced them. That is how good you were.

Shannon: That's one of my greatest strengths and like worst weaknesses, that I can convince people just about anything. And that I'm fine. When I'm fantasizing about cars running into me

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. I actually wrote a blog about that. If you're, if you are, because it's pretty common.

Because then it's oh, then I can get a break, then I can rest

Shannon: Worst case scenario. I die best case scenario, right? I'm in the hospital for awhile and someone else has to deal with all my stuff. And I can just be in the hospital again, not thoughts that you should have exactly when your life is in balance, right?

Nancy Yeah. Okay. So this happens. What did you do.

Shannon: Yeah. I got on the waiting list to see a therapist because let me tell you, it is hard to find a therapist. And so I called all these places, including my OB GYN, who should have been also looking out for these signs of depression after having a baby, but it's mistake.

Because I'm really good at faking. And I was on the wait list there too. So I waited for a couple of weeks. And then fortunately I got in to see someone and even just the recognition of yeah, no, this is not you. Something is going on with you. You probably have things going on in your life that are causing you extra stress.

And you're adding the layers on top of things, but. you have anxiety and depression and you need to deal with that. And then you'll be able to deal with other things, even just that awareness was like, game-changing okay. But then I use my like old habits of like hustle hustle to fix my anxiety and depression.

So I hired a life coach. And I went to an energy healer and hired a dietician to help me work on my diet. And like literally went right back into those terrible habits of like, all right now that I know I'm going to fix this and I'm going to find out all these things about myself and then it wasn't until I like got a little further down the path that I realized oh, you're doing it again.

Nancy: (laughing) Yeah. It is insidious.

Shannon: it's just how I operate. Problem. And I'm going to fix it. I don't know all the different ways that it can be fixed and go until it's fixed. And that you can't fix yourself because you're always healing and working and journeying. So there wasn't a destination.

Nancy: How do you catch it? Because worthiness and achievement. Are so linked in our brains. Yeah. How did you start pulling that apart?

Shannon: And I would say I'm sure I still fall into those types of habits. There is no fix, but one of the things that I did was my therapist and my life coach have the red flags to watch out for, from me.

So like I gave my support network kind of the, veto card of what if they start seeing certain habits or me starting to say certain things, they know that now it's tap the brakes. And you are not operating from the place that you want to be operating from. And that was really essential for me, especially when I decided to have a second baby that I was like, I need people around me that aren't going to be afraid to challenge me that I've given permission to challenge me. If they start seeing me go down this path,

Nancy: Was that hard for you to ask for that?

Shannon: No, because I was in such a deep despair that it was very aware that there was no other option.

Nancy: Okay. Because that is the key, the support team and, giving them permission to call you out and be like, wow, this is one of your red flags.

Shannon: yeah. And I would say for me, it was essential that those people were outside of my circle. If that makes sense it can't be my husband's trying to be like, you are doing too much.

I'll be like, screw you. Yeah, I'm fine. Or even like my best friends I want, those people to be support, but they can't be the bad guys. And I use that word loosely because it's not being a bad guy, but the truth tellers, let my friends tell me what I need to hear.

Let my external support, tell me what I really need to hear.

Nancy: So who are your truth tellers?

Shannon: My, my therapist who is absolutely amazing. My life coach who's actually now my friend, but we have a different kind of friend relationship obviously founded in this fact. And those are really the two and they, and I have two because they both have very different approaches to things too.

So I feel like if they're both saying this is a flag, then that is serious.

Nancy: Since your spiritual awakening as Brené Brown says, have you had another flare up since the first ?

Shannon: Not, not nearly, what would have gotten me to that place. I think I learned my lesson so hard there that I'll be surprised if I ever go there. I'll catch the workaholic tendencies of, like getting excited about something and wanting to like only focus on that and work on that.

That's never gonna go away, but definitely. Before I can pile it on too heavy. I have the awareness and space to see am I just piling things on because I like the energy of being busy or are these really things that I need to be doing?

Nancy: What are some of your signs, if you, would you be willing to share them?

Shannon: Sure. Mind racing is a big one. Like I can see, like when I'm working on too many things like this, the ping ponging of ideas in my head going all the time. If I wake up with a ton of energy, that's a flag. Because I'm not really a morning person. So if I'm waking up to a normal day, I'll be groggy.

If I like jump out of bed, then that's like a sign. Yeah. Too much is going on

Nancy: So that pattern is addicting.

Shannon: Like it feels good, right? It feels good To wake up with energy in the morning. It feels amazing Yes.

Nancy: I think that fact combined with the fact that slowing down and taking care of ourselves, we've believe is something we have to earn.

I have to work hard enough to earn the break, to earn taking a break. I have to deserve it. I hear that a lot from my clients.

Shannon: I don’t think I have that one. I think I always had been, I feel like if I want to take a break, I can. But the problem for me is when I have a lot of space, like even like good space, it feels like something's missing.

It's that feeling of I must be forgetting something because normally things are so chaotic and I'm bouncing around and I'm like pulled to my capacity that when I actually have space, it's like, What's wrong? And you almost want to, create a problem to put in that space. Yeah. But yeah, I've never felt like I needed to earn rest, but I do sometimes feel like I have to defend it because other people believe that.

Other people believe I work more hours than you do. So why should you? I have to make dinner. And not you, even though it's my night to make dinner. I don't know if this is specific enough of an example of what's going on in my household. Sometimes if it's Wednesday, I'm not making dinner.

And I'm okay. And I think. I have been, I've been working on myself long enough to know like that's other people's stuff, not mine. And so it, it does help me like stay centered in no. And also again I think my burnout and breakdown was so bad that I recognize it's not just better for me.

It's better for everyone. If I can keep this going, it really is because otherwise I'm jumping into traffic and that's not good for anybody. You can make dinner Wednesday night.

Nancy: Yeah. I think that's awesome. Just because I've had clients say to me, I know if I get up and journal and take time in the morning, I feel better, but yeah.

Encouraging themselves to do that, especially if they wake up with the, I have a ton of energy. Yeah. Then you really can't write, then that's not happening.

Shannon: Yeah. And it feels so good. You're like, I don't need to journal. I feel amazing. And then by 11, you're like a zombie, you used up all your energy for that.

Nancy: Exactly. And so it's really, you're able to slow down. Regularly, slow down.

Shannon: I am, but it's not always comfortable. I would say like a lot of times still this part, this far into my journey, it's still uncomfortable sometimes. Like I want to be go, because that feels energizing, but I really know it's not going to be good on that end.

Nancy: Okay. So something that I loved that you talked about was how the striving takes away our creativity. And that's also something that Brene´ Brown talks about

Shannon: because we're basically the same person. (laughing)

Nancy: Tell me more about that.

Shannon: Yeah. I would say like when I'm in strive mode, I'm just like checking things off. I'm just like getting it done. Like I'm very decisive again. Could be good. Could be bad. And so I'm just doing without the space to really like, explore all the options and explore what's interesting about things.

So I think when I slowed down, not just like in a creative Ooh, and then I paint tonight. So creative, like I'm not creative in that way, but I'm definitely able to even just look at problems in situations with different approach. When I have more space, I used to like when I would get like stuck on something, I would think, I just need to like plow through just get it done.

And I would have this message in my mind. Just done is better than perfect and just get through it. And like sometimes that's needed, but most of the time it's the opposite for me of if I'm stuck on something, I need to take space from it. And the more space I can give myself the easier it is to find like the creativity to get through whatever it is.

That's my personal expense. Of, the forcing things through versus letting things.

Nancy: And I love that it's isn't because sometimes I think, Brene´ Brown's message is more about doing creativity. And I think that could be a block to some people.

So I like how you're saying it's expansiveness, it's looking at the ideas. In a bigger way, not just the minutia of the to-do list and check check, check.

Shannon: Which again, feels good. I love a check mark.

But yeah, I'll use like a good, like a tangible exam. I put together a program for our conference, rebel con, and we've picked speakers from all over the country and there's like kind of a format, but like within that format, there's a lot of space for creativity and thinking about the flow of who comes before, who and what types of conversations are important there.

And I had no, my process with that. Every time I try to do it. And there's like this fear of if I don't like, get this done right now, like I'm gonna miss the speakers that I want. Like people are gonna get booked up. And I've all these stories about what I need to just get it done really fast.

But every single time I'm like, Nope, like when I'm not sure, like who I want in this program, I just need to sit back and give myself some space and stop hustling through it because. I will find where those holes need to be filled and they will get filled. And I can say that, because now we're doing it for the sixth time.

So I have like proof that it actually does happen. It is coming regardless. Like somebody's going to be up there to talk like

Nancy: yeah. And I think I know for me, every time I practice that of slowing down and pulling back and stopping the hustle, it's the result is better.

Shannon: I always get the best ideas on vacation.

Yeah.

Nancy: Yeah. But it isn't a logical

Shannon: So why is it so hard to take vacation? ,

Nancy: exactly. Yeah. It's so true.

Okay. So one of the areas you found that was a key was support.. And that we as women don't think about that intentionally, which I loved, because we don't think about that intentionally. Tell me about how you got to that.

Shannon: This is my soul work right now, which sounds more weird than it is. But so when I started rebel con I knew the project was bigger than I could do it myself. So the first thing I did was I wanted to find cool people to work. And so in doing that, what I didn't realize I was doing is creating this circle of friends.

And I didn't realize that I didn't have friends. And it was so weird because I know tons of people and I could always have someone to invite over for something like I go to coffee dates with people every single day but I didn't realize that I didn't have real adult friends.

And I'm still connected with people from my past, but not in the come over right now, type of friend. And so once I had that, I was like, holy cannoli. People don't have this, which is proof from how quickly I was able to assemble this group of friends, because nobody has friends.

It was just so weird because then as soon as this group forms, like chaos started just happening in everybody's life. And it wasn't that because we were friends, chaos was happening, it was. Chaos was happening. And we had the support of friends, all it just came together at the same time.

So like a friend was getting divorced and then the other was breaking up with her boyfriend and I had to quit a job. And this one's dad got cancer and it's just the normal things that happen in life all the time. But all of the sudden we had this circle of support for one another that I just happened to like accidentally have at this point in my life.

Was great for me, obviously it would have been really great to have this circle when I had my breakdown, but whatever, I'm more grown up person now, I'm probably a better friend now than I would have been because I wouldn't have been available because I'd been working and visiting and not wanting to show up for my friends.

So that was my own personal aha moment of oh my God. People were my friends. And I think that supports me in a way that it's almost like crazy to think it never happened. It's not that I need them every day or even talk to them every day. But it's this feeling of, if something goes terribly wrong, I had six different people that I could potentially call.

For whatever and that's just a feeling that I don't think you realize you don't have until you have. And I think, I have like my mom, who's a couple of hours away that if it's really bad, I can call my mom. I have my mother-in-law like, I have other support in my life.

My therapist, my life coach. I have people to talk to, again, not the same as the person. That's going to drop everything and deliver pizza to your house because she knows you're really stressed and your kids need to eat. That's just a different. Yeah, it's just a different situation. And I live in the city, like I'm not friends with my neighbors.

Like we're not like in a cul-de-sac where everybody's kids play together and everybody knows each other, which I feel like is also really common. Like people move away from their family. People don't have the structural support that we had when everyone belonged to a faith organization. There's just this missing piece of support.

And it affects women. I think more than men because women. One are doing way more work, not to make this feminist thing, but they are not more work both like in labor and in emotional work. And so when you're doing so much emotional work, you need support. Emotionally. And that's like my soapbox story, but I really believe it with my whole heart.

And I think what I have hoped that I can do with my organization. I know I can't create these relationships for people. And I think, apps like Bumble and like other places where you can meet people, I think are great, but I think. You have to meet a lot of people until you find your people.

And that's hard to do as a grownup, especially as a workaholic grownup. Because you don't get time to meet people because you got work to do

So that's, what I, my like super strong feeling about support. I think there is this message that we can all do it alone. We can all do it by ourselves. That our strength is in how much we can carry by ourselves. But everybody knows, if you have more people carrying, you're going to carry multiple, like it's multiples how much you can do.

And also that's a very productive way of looking at the world, right? Like sometimes I just need someone to cry with. And I'd like to be able to pick who that is. And now that I have multiple friends that have one I could pick.

Nancy: Right Yeah.

Shannon: What a gift! Absolutely. Or I can call all of them and make them all listen to me cry, which would be fine.

Or I can just put a crying emoji in the group chat and then have my text messages blow up for a day, which also feels really nice.

Nancy: I see these women you found were all built around.

Shannon: This event I found them by accident, right? It is how it happens.

And so again, that's what, why, we've created rebel. The conference is one thing that we produced, but we also have a community which we have events every month and they're literally, that's who they attract. They attract women that are just looking for connection. They want to be able to talk to someone about something different than just the work.

Or just the role they play in their family. And that's one of our goals is just to create another space for people to find each other.

Nancy: My husband or I belong to a book club

We’ll do a couples thing and the women are like my mom's age, but my husband and I will both say it's so awesome to go there and talk about. Just life, not about our day-to-day life or about, our jobs are about like, they just want to hear about life. Like it's just such a different conversation than.

The ins and outs of every day. And it's just such a different level of support.

Shannon: Yeah, I know. I feel like you get lucky when you find it and you should seek it somehow in whatever way, because it is so valuable. I have two young kids, but I don't want to have a group of moms because that's what moms want to talk about.

Not all moms, but like some moms. And the only thing you have in common with other people is that you have kids, you ended up talking about kids and the same thing, as far as your work the only thing you, if the only thing you have in common is your work with these people. You're going to talk about work, but when you don't have work or family in common with people, you talk about it.

Nancy: Yes. Yeah. And it is a thing. I think that people want a formula for. How do I find people? Same thing with when, if you're dating, like how do I find, I looked really hard for my husband. (laughing)

One of the pushbacks I always get Is, my clients will be like I'm an introvert and it's hard for me to go to these events. What is your thoughts on that?

Shannon: It's funny. I'm an introvert, but I'm not, afraid to be around people introvert. I'm the, when I'm around people, I need time by myself introvert.

So it's almost hard for me to know if I was like afraid to talk to people, like how would I meet people? But, we have people that are afraid to talk to people that come to our events all the time and they just don't talk to anybody until someone talks to them, which again probably is scary for them.

But I don't know. Sometimes you just have to, you got to do it. It's if I want to really want to meet someone, but I don't like going on dates. It's wow. And I gotta do it then. No, like after you, so for me, like after we have an event, I know that night it's gonna be hard for me to fall asleep because I get like wound up from the energy of a lot of people in extroverted and so I just know, like on those nights, like I'm gonna have to be up later.

So then the next day I need to like, make sure my schedule, I can sleep in later and I come home and I watch dumb Netflix and I eat ramen noodles. And that's like how I like contain this extroverted that I had to do. And knowing what I need to do on the backend to recover from it. I love that.

I mean is not self care, but it is for me. Yeah.

Nancy: That's intentionality, I mean like you, because you have pulled back on your life and you're not just click through everything. You're able to say, okay, I love doing this gathering and it's draining. How can I do, how can I care there?

Yeah, that's good. That's awesome. So what's your, I want to hear also the idea. Did you struggle with support equals weakness? Initially,

Shannon: No, actually I think my problem is I struggle with a huge ego and that I can do everything better than everybody else. And so that's a problem. And I still struggle with that sometimes, but I.

I know, a lot of people do think if I am asking for help, that means something's wrong. I think I did sometimes. I feel like I'm imposing on people by asking. And I come across that a lot when I talk to people about asking for help. Because that's my biggest thing is if you are struggling, ask for help and I recognize it's really hard, but if you ask someone and they say, no that's fine.

I think there's like this fear of I don't want to ask someone that they might say no, and. I think a lot of that is from, I feel bad if I have to say no when someone asks me for help. So I don't want to make someone else feel bad that they have to say no to me. And it's funny because, so I always use my sister-in-law as an example, my sister.

Is amazing, but she's like very, what's the word almost like Bohemian in that she's just like in and out. And sometimes she's really in, and sometimes she's really out and she just you can't nail her down. She's like a nomad lives wherever, like just one of these people. But she moved to Richmond, which is where I live when my second baby was born and was at my house every single day and awesome.

But if I ask her for something, it's like a note. Oh, it's so funny. And she's great at boundaries. Like I'm telling you if I, if like Oprah Winfrey was like, Shannon, come to lunch right now. And I was like, Hey Jess, I know you're just here hanging out. Can you just keep the baby while I run to Oprah's house?

She'd be like, no, I gotta go. And I'm like, all right, like that's just how she is. And I think it's great because it doesn't mean she's not helpful. It just, she's helpful to me in the way that she wants to help me. And I know this is about her. This is our understanding. It is what it is.

It doesn't hurt my feelings. It doesn't hurt her feelings. Let it just be what it is. But we have this fear of also if I ask this person. Then, if they ask me, I have to say yes. Also not true. You can say no. And I think that's a harder one to do in practice. People can understand it emotionally and mentally, but it's hard to practice.

Nancy: Because I think we get stuck in that keeping score. Yeah.

Shannon: Yeah. And that's not real friendship and that's not real support. Obviously if you. To reciprocate in some way that may be received well, and the gratitude is appreciated, but it shouldn't feel like I'm doing this for you because I might need something from you.

That's not a good relationship on either side. Yeah.

Nancy: Because I actually thought you were gonna say it and I'm glad you didn't. I thought you were going to say, if someone says no, if you ask someone for help and they say no, then they're showing you who they are. Because a common theme in the self-help industry is then they're showing you the type of person they're.

Shannon: no, I get it may not mean no in the future may just me. No this second for exactly what you're asking me for right now, that doesn't mean you can never ask me for anything ever again. I would hope that you don't have friends like that.

Nancy:

Exactly. Like it isn't that It isn't that cut and dry because you talk about this in a Facebook live that you did. I think it was a couple of years ago about how you were learning, how to set boundaries and you had that the fear of missing out by saying no or hurting someone's feelings and that's a huge one for people.

Shannon: Yeah. And I'll say I still have fear of missing out. I don't think I'll ever get over that. I just like to be involved in stuff. And when people are doing cool stuff without me, I just feel left out. And that's my like, teenager self, just it's never going to get better. Maybe it'll get better, but it's not going to be great.

But I also realize now I don't die. It's fine. If I miss something, there will be something else. Yeah, but the fear of hurting people's feelings like this one, actually, I feel like I've been working on a lot lately. I do want people to like me, like that's the feeling that I have as a human being, but I recognize through lots of therapy.

I am a good person. I do want the best for people. I never would you anything, they would intentionally hurt someone. So if I do hurt someone's feelings, it's not because I want their feelings to be hurt. It's because I did something that I didn't realize what hurt their feelings. And so knowing that about myself makes it that much easier to say no, and know, I might hurt someone's feelings because that's not my area.

My intention is not say no to your feelings. My intention is to say no, because I just can't and, or I don't want to. And those are different things. And I think before therapy and before realizing all the stuff about myself, I thought I was not a good, and the only real way to be a good person is to do good things for other people or do things that make people like me or feel appreciated, or, I thought I had to work too.

Yeah. And now I realize no, I'm good. I'm really confident in my morality. And so if there's negative things that happen because of me, it's not intended. And that is what it is.

Nancy: Oh, I love that.

That is awesome. Yeah. Yeah. I think that's brilliant. Because the other thing also, I'll often tell to clients is you can say no to someone and they can get upset.

That's fine. And you don't have to change your response. And they're not bad people because they got upset. You're not a bad person. Because you said no, we're all just having feelings around here and that's okay.

Okay. So I'm fascinated to hear more about everything you're doing with rebel con and cool. And the communities.

Shannon: So we started the conference in 2017 and we did a couple of events and then people were like, these events are so awesome. Like we want to connect in between. And that was really the catalyst for the community. So we've only been about a year doing the community chapters. So we've got one enrichment, one in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, one in Maryland in between Baltimore and DC.

And then we just signed on a leader in Philadelphia. You heard it here first.. So that's exciting. And basically the idea was we just want to get these people in a room together again, but everyone's so different and everyone's interested in different things.

Like what do we do with them when they're here? And so we just started putting together programming. That was just the kind of programming that we as a team. Wanting to hear. And so instead of it being like a traditional networking group that you're going with the intention of making a connection for some sort of business purpose we wanted it to be, make some sort of connection for a personal purpose.

Okay. And so our content does like balanced between the professional and personal development, but. We will tell you this as professional development and we'll trick you and then you'll come and then really you'll make friends. But it's not, we're not like shady about it. Obviously I say this on podcasts.

I'm going to trick you with this LinkedIn workshop and you're going to leave with a buddy. So I'll put that in the description. I don't care. But yeah. We have panels. We do workshops and then we've just added some new event formats, like member meetups, just more intimate places that people can connect and meet each other.

And the topics that we pick are what I find so fun. We, our most recent panel here in Richmond was titled the breadwinners. And so it was for women that work in very different industries and different roles, but they are all the primary earner in their household. And so talking about what does that mean?

And like, how do they manage their home finances and who does, what in the house? And, what does that do for their relationship? And do they have kids or don't they, and how does that affect things? And just, I think the kinds of questions that you always want to ask people, but it's like rude to ask them but I would, I'm like dying to know do you have joint bank accounts?

Do you have separate bank accounts? Do you give your husband an allowance? Like how does this work. And so we have those kinds of conversations. Other topics that we've done that were like really well received, we had the quitters, so it was women that had quit different things in their life.

So one was like a job, a business, a marriage listening to their mother, like from the like Pratt, like tangible thing to a bad habit. And that was really fun. And then we do also do like industry based ones. We'll have one coming up, that's women in education. And you don't have to also work in education to attend, but if you're interested in, these people that have this job, that's like totally different from anything that you do, which I am fascinated that people have jobs that are different than mine.

It gives you a behind the scenes view. So it's like, what do they do? And what do they see happening? And. What does the world look like through their perspective? So yeah, so that is what we do. We bring women together to talk about whatever they want to talk about. In different formats, because like you were talking about introverts are different people connect in different ways.

Like some people love to just go here and talk, because then they don't actually have to talk to anybody and they can just be in the room and get the energy. Some people do want to connect, but they don't want to connect when there's 50 people in the room. They'd rather do that. So giving people different and some people like a workshop, because then you're there for a purpose and you're doing something.

So then the connection just was accidental, but you're like learning a skill. And sometimes people don't feel good about investing in like having more friends and like being more fulfilled person, but they will invest in a. Like they said LinkedIn, which is what it, that don't get me wrong. That LinkedIn works.

I was like one of the best workshops I ever went to. And I learned so much, but I learned about LinkedIn. And then I also learned about making connections. So we're still going to trick you. Oh, one of my other favorite events that we did that I think is so fun that we have this woman, she used to work at the Pentagon and she does like a brainstorming strategy technique that she can use with anybody.

And so she came to show us the brainstorming strategy technique, but she was like you have to have a problem that you're trying to solve. And I was like, our problems. How to make friends. And so then as a group, we like learned this technique that you could take back to like work on whatever problem solving you have.

But then also we like brainstorm on like how to make friends and then people left and went to happy hour after.

Nancy: So what about the. Those are the communities.

Shannon: Those are the community events. So the conference, our four themes of program, our wellness money, community creativity. And we picked those four themes because at the time was like right after I came out of my burnout.

And I'm like, if I can get these four things. Solid in my life, then I feel like I have a better chance of getting things back on track. So like wellness first, because you know this, I know this, but it's so hard to remember if you don't take care of yourself, like none of the rest of them matters, like walking down the street, waiting for a card at you.

It doesn't matter how much money you have in the bank. Wellness then money because money is important and it matters. And women don't talk about it enough. And so opening up the conversation about it, not necessarily like here's what you should do with your money, but like how we can engage with it in a more intentional way.

Community, because of all of these things that I talk about of how important support is, and having other people that care about you and you caring about them. So important. And then creativity, because there has to be some sort of outlet and right, like I said, I'm not a creative person and that I'm not a painter or whatever, but my version of creativity is different than other people's are.

And. Spreadsheets and like strategy and strategy is absolutely a creative pursuit. And so I think, debunking the, what is creativity really? And how can you be intentional about your creativity, whatever that means for you. That's give those are the four. So those are the four things we talk about and we try to bring people that have an interesting perspective to share.

I am not a big fan of experts. Because I'm like, you don't know me know my life. So I'd rather not have an expert on the stage. Tell me what I should be doing. I'd rather have someone share their experience and what they know about that, what they've learned from that experience versus tell me what to do.

That is the person. And it's really fun and it's most of what we get back, definitely people make comments about the speakers that they are inspired and, discovered someone new that they hadn't heard about and learned interesting things. But most of the feedback is they're just jazz to have been in a room of people that they feel like whether they're strangers or not.

Everyone in that room genuinely wants each other to be successful. And it is, I forget because I literally built that room. And so I live in it all the time, but that's not the room that most people live in. And so that's really, to me, if I get that feedback, that's how I know the event was a success.

So even just for one day, if you could hang out. Everyone wants you to be your best. You like that's worth the price of admission to me. So we do have

Nancy: food, man. That's important

Shannon: and snacks.

Nancy: Yeah. And this takes the conference is in

Shannon: Richmond, Virginia, this spring.

Nancy: Okay. And what's the website

Shannon: for that?

Rebel, R E B E L E con.com.

Nancy: Okay. And we'll also have that in the show notes in case people want to check that out. So I, the thing I love about your story is that you're willing to share it. That's awesome. And, but it wasn't a direct path and it still isn't, because I always am saying, I think for a long time I believed I needed to be an expert in order to do this, to do teach this work.

And I really got better at this work when I finally was like, I'm just doing this and it's a struggle. Every day. And I really try every day and I really try to be intentional. Yeah. That's the best we can ask. And just to witness other people struggles and that we're in this together. And how can we pull out of this?

I think that is that's, it's a gift that you're sharing it. So thank you for taking the time.

Shannon: Oh my gosh. Thank you for letting me and for sharing so many stories.

Nancy: Two things that I would take away. A, it's not easy. And B it's a choice. Like you really have to make the choice to not get sucked into the hop up, to recognize, I need to slow down to challenge myself, to get out of the house and meet new people too.

It's never going to be the great, the perfect time or the feel the best, or you're absolutely going to know for sure. This is the right step. It's always going to be a choice. That's a risk.

Shannon: Yeah. And sometimes it is too hard. And then you just need to wait until it's the next day. Because there's a lot of pressure there too, of like I just don't want to do it and I have to make myself and I'm thinking sometimes not

Nancy: Love that. Thank you for saying that too. Yeah. Because my big thing is it's, it's all about just being calm. To yourself. Like the more you can plow on that kindness, because a lot of people think it's about, I need to accept myself a hundred percent for who I am and I'm like, I can't do that.

I've really struggled to do that, but I can be kind, even before this interview, I was like super nervous. Yeah. And I was like, you're going to get nervous. That's what you do here. We know what we're doing. We got this. We're going to go in and just settling myself down enough to do that. Makes such a big difference.

Shannon: And being nervous as great. It's like Bruce Springsteen said that if he ever doesn't get nervous before a show, he knows he's going to retire. Because it's done. The magic is gone.

Nancy: It's true because you really are working at it. That shows your passions there and you want to do a good job and all that stuff.

And you're doing such great things.

Shannon: So I was a little nervous to, but thank you so much for taking the time to do this and sharing your story And check out Rebel.com and you might be meeting some new friends.

Before we go, I wanted to highlight something Shannon said, which was the power of recognizing your intentions are good. So often I hear from clients that their monger was attacking them for saying no, we're making a mistake and they try to talk down their monger and it just doesn't work.

It will never work to try to talk down your monger or rationalize with her. The only thing that works is strengthening the voice of the biggest fan, which is why I loved what Shannon said so much, because that is the voice of the biggest fan. Your biggest fan will remind you, Hey, you have good intentions.

You just cannot make it to the event you aren't being mean. You aren't being lazy. You're just prioritizing yourself, which is awesome. So often we fall in the trap of believing our monger. She says such terrible things about ourselves practice asking to hear from your biggest fan and reminding yourself at your core, you are a genuinely kind person and even genuinely kind people can't please everyone.

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Helping people with High Functioning Anxiety is a personal mission for me. I have a special place in my heart for this struggle because it’s both something I dealt with unknowingly for years, and because it silently affects so many people who think this is just how it is.

Working with me this way is an incredibly efficient and effective way to deal with your anxiety in the moment--without waiting for your next appointment.

I have been doing this work for over 20 years and Coach in Your Pocket is the most effective and most life-changing work I have ever done. My clients are consistently blown away by how these daily check-ins combined with the monthly face-to-face video meetings create slow, lasting changes that reprogram their High Functioning Anxiety tendencies over time.

Over the course of the three-month program, we meet once a month for a face-to-face session via a secure video chat, and then throughout the entire three months, you have access to me anytime you are feeling anxious, having a Monger attack, celebrating a win, or just need to check-in, and I will respond to you during my office hours (Monday through Friday, 9 am - 6 pm EST).

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Episode 122: How To Implement A.S.K. When There Aren't Enough Hours In The Day

In today’s episode, I wanted to bring back Abby and hear how she implements A.S.K. when she realizes she doesn’t have enough hours in the day.

For many years I believed that I could fix my High Functioning Anxiety 

I thought that if only I could find the right way to do it, that if I just found the right hack, I could be healed. 

But this isn’t how it works. The truth is that we will never be done with our High Functioning Anxiety.  There isn’t a hack that can fix everything. Yes, we can loosen its grip and live a life without it controlling everything but it takes work. High Functioning Anxiety is an ongoing issue and learning to live with it is a daily process. 

In December we talked about the 3 characters that play in our minds – the Monger (inner critic), the BFF (the voice of false self-compassion), and the Biggest Fan (the voice of kindness and wisdom) – and about how when we hear our Monger talking and berating us, or our BFF judging other people or sabotaging us, the goal is to bring in the voice of Biggest Fan. 

All this month we have been talking about how to do that.  In the past 3 episodes, I introduced A.S.K. and talked about the 3 steps: Acknowledge your feelings, Slow Down and get into your body, and Kindly pull back and see the big picture. 

And as I have said before, A.S.K. is more nuanced than just doing these 3 steps.

So today I wanted to bring back Abby and hear how she implements A.S.K. around a common problem that I hear from just about everyone: what do we do about the issue of “not having enough hours in the day.”

Listen to the full episode to find out:

• How to use the feelings sheet to acknowledge what you are feeling.

• How to practice staying in your body and bringing in your Biggest Fan whenever you get frustrated.

• How to enlist your Biggest Fan into seeing the big picture

• And the rewards of doing the hard work of not allowing your Monger to run the show.

Some of the research and resources mentioned:

• The Feelings List PDF

• Episode 119: Acknowledging your feelings

• Episode 120: Slow down and get into your body

• Episode 121: Kindly pull back and see the big picture

+ Read the Transcript

For many years I believed I could hack my High functioning anxiety. If only I found the RIGHT way to do it, I could be fixed, healed. It is ironic because High Functioning Anxiety keeps us stuck in this loop that if we do everything RIGHT, we can relax, we can earn a break. But that isn’t how life works. We will never EARN a break.

We will never hack our High Functioning Anxiety and be done with it. High Functioning Anxiety is an ongoing issue. Yes, we can loosen its grip, yes we can live a life without it controlling everything, but that takes work.

It is a process.

A daily process.

“You’re listening to The Happier Approach—the show that pulls back the curtain on the need to succeed, hustle, and achieve at the price of our inner peace and relationships. I’m your host, Nancy Jane Smith.”

In December, we talked about the 3 characters that play in our minds the Monger (inner critic), the BFF (the voice of false self-compassion), and the Biggest Fan (the voice of kindness and wisdom) when we hear our Monger talking and berating us or our BFF judging other people or sabotaging us, the goal is to bring in the voice of Biggest Fan.

All this month, we have been talking about HOW to do that. In the past 3 episodes, I introduced A.S.K. and talked about the 3 steps A. Acknowledge your Feelings and the second step S. Slow Down and get into your body.

And the third step – K-Kindly pull back and see the big picture.

As I have said before, A.S.K. is more nuanced than just do these 3 steps, and poof, your anxiety will go away, so today I wanted to bring back Abby and hear how she implements A.S.K. around a common problem that I hear from just about everyone, the issue of ‘not having enough hours in the day.’

We first met Abby back in episode 110

Hi there, I am Abby

Abby is a wife and mom to 2 children, a boy, and a girl, and works full time in a management role.

Abby deals with High Functioning Anxiety, and she has been learning how to implement the A.S.K. method to reduce her anxiety and her constant Monger chatter.

Acknowledge what you are feeling

Slow Down and Get into your body

Kindly pull back and see the big picture.

Let’s see how Abby feels about the amount of time she has to get it all done:

“There are not enough hours in the day! I set my alarm for 5am every morning, so I have a better chance of getting through my list, but my Monger likes to make me up promptly at 3:11, taunting me to use the extra hours to my advantage.”

Let’s follow Abby as she goes through her day and tries to bring her Biggest Fan into the picture more.

As soon as Abby’s alarm goes off, she is off to the races. Treadmill, coffee, shower, pack the lunches, handle carpool and try to get to work before everyone else so she can get more done.

As she sits in the morning rush hour traffic, her Monger starts going:

“Well, this is a great start… my inbox is probably busting at the seams, I’m behind on the big project, and I’ve got to rally the troops for next week’s group presentation… Traffic is the last thing I need today.”

Abby hits her horn in frustration as someone cuts her off.

“We are all sitting in traffic, jerk. You aren’t going to go any faster in my lane!”

Before Abby gets out of her car, she says to herself:

Wow, already starting the day stressed. Let’s practice A.S.K. I feel so silly doing this but let’s give it a try. If you always do what you’ve always done, you’ll always get what you’ve always got, right?

She pulls out the feeling sheet she keeps stuffed in her work bag and names 6-10 feelings.

I am feeling insecure, panicky, worthless, unhappy about work, annoyed, frustrated about traffic and the morning so far, and excited about watching my son’s play tonight.

Then, she slows down and starts to get out of her head. She does some stretches as she walks into her office. Finally, she starts to pull back and focus on the bigger picture:

OK, so I have A LOT to do, but I always have a lot to do. I am going to take 10 minutes and plan the day realistically. What can I get done? Do I even know what I can get done? I usually set my expectations so high, and I am always disappointed.

What if today I just focused on noticing where I get caught up and when I start to get off track? I don’t have to beat myself up--I can just be honest about what’s going on.

Abby walks into work feeling energized. As she turns on her computer, she sees 50 new emails.

Oh my God, I am NEVER going to get through these.

Her Monger starts up again:

“HA! So much for your great day of productivity, you can’t take time to PLAN. You have to answer all of these before you can do ANYTHING! What will people think if you don’t reply right away?!?”

Abby immediately shuts her computer, defeated, and walks to make her second pot of coffee.

As she fills her favorite mug with coffee and milk, she feels the warm mug in her hands and says to herself.

OK, not beating myself up today, remember? Noticing. Email is a snag—a big one.

It’s just so hard to feel this overwhelmed all the time! There has GOT to be a better way to do this than constantly feeling like I am behind. I’m going to put the emails aside for a few minutes and plan out my day.

It’s true: the emails can wait. Abby makes her plan and still has 15 minutes before the office starts bustling.

Perfect! I will triage these emails and set my priorities before everyone gets here.

By the time the office gets bustling...Abby has her head down, priorities set and is working her way through her emails.

An hour later, having finished the triage and feeling briefly on top of things. Abby gets called into an unexpected meeting:

Ok, so this meeting is NOT on my priority list... and it’s probably going to be a major waste of time, but I’m going to commit to showing up, being present, and making the most of it.

Abby decides she will practice staying in her body and bringing in her biggest fan whenever she gets frustrated.

As the meeting drones on, Abby continually brings herself back to her body. Noticing her feet on the floor. As her anxiety increase with each passing minute, she hears her biggest fan say to her:

“This is where we need to be right now. It is frustrating that our to-do list is a mile long, and this is where we need to be.”

Finally, Abby is free of the meeting. Her boss grabs her on her way out to ask her about the special project he had assigned her.

Yep, still working on it and will have something on your desk by the end of the week!

Abby says with a smile.

Oh lord--why did I say that?

How the hell am I going to make that happen!?! I guess I will be working late this week!!

Abby makes her way back to her office and immediately goes to her email. She is making her way through the 25 new messages that came in during the meeting and then remembers.

Oh right, I am working on priorities, not just email today!!

She shuts down her email and starts working on priority #1, the special project for her boss. She opens the spreadsheet, sets the timer on her phone for 30 minutes, and starts working.

After 10 minutes, she finds herself once again in her inbox.

What am I doing? Nothing important here! Why am I wasting time in my inbox?

Rather than beating herself up, she gets curious.

Ok, what am I feeling? I am feeling panicky, uncomfortable, and worthless. This project is completely out of my wheelhouse. Why did he assign this to me!?! I just know he is going to fire me!

She can feel her thoughts racing again, so she consciously calls in her Biggest Fan.

This is something totally new for everyone--and you’re the go-to for figuring this stuff out. It’s completely understandable that you’re feeling panicky. And sure, you are behind the deadline and feeling stuck… but we can get back on track. Where are you getting stuck specifically? Is there anyone you can talk to about it?

Abby realizes that it’s the numbers that are freaking her out, which makes her immediately think of her colleague, Scott. Scott loves numbers--so she offers to take him to lunch so he can help her sort it out.

At lunch, after Scott and Abby talk through the project, they spend the rest of the time ripping on their boss. Making fun of him, laughing and comparing stories on what an idiot he is. As Abby walks back into her office, she feels bad. She realizes her BFF was running the show the whole lunch.

Man, my BFF used to run the show all the time!! Whenever I would get stressed, my BFF would step in to blame someone else. I am so glad that isn’t my norm, but she does raise her ugly head from time to time.

Before she starts her work, Abby calls in her Biggest Fan.

Let me acknowledge what I am feeling: Guilty and embarrassed for talking about my boss all lunch. But also pleased that I asked for help and relieved that I know what I am doing.

Abby stands up to do a quick wiggle to shake off the guilt and embarrassment, and her Biggest Fan says,

Ok, girl, you have the answers from Scott--that’s enough to get you started. No email. No distractions, let’s get to work. You got this!!

And she sets the timer for 30 minutes.

Abby makes some major headway and gets up and walks around the office, and fills up her water bottle.

She has 15 mins until her next mtg, so she triages her email until she has to leave.

Abby handles the rest of her day, attending meetings, returning to her desk, getting into her body, setting her timer, and accomplishing her work.

At the end of the day, Abby does a quick review of the day. What went well? What didn’t go well? And what can she do differently tomorrow?

She sets her priorities and packs up to head home and make dinner before her son’s play tonight!

He is going to be amazing! I can’t wait to watch him.

As Abby sits in the bustling auditorium waiting for the play to start, she reflexively reaches in her purse to pull out her phone and check her work email.

Her Biggest Fan chimes in:

Ok, sweetpea, put the phone down. Look around. What do you see? What do you hear? What do you feel? What do you smell?

She looks around the auditorium, gets in her body, and relaxes enough to enjoy the show.

The email will be there tomorrow.

Later that night, as Abby crawls into bed, her Monger starts chiming in:

“YOU have so much to get done tomorrow!!! What are you going to do?! You will NEVER finish everything.”

Abby allows herself to feel the agitation and insecurity, and she stretches her arms up above her head, and then she calmly says to herself.

Worrying about it isn’t going to help. I have a plan. I have my priorities set, and I am figuring out how I work best. I WILL get it done. I CAN finish this project, and I know who to ask for help if I get stuck. I can see now that my expectations for what I can accomplish between emails and meetings are overblown. I am going to need to keep working on those expectations. That is going to be a daily practice!!!

Ok, so I want to comment about Abby’s day. You might be thinking all these mental gymnastics sounds exhausting!!! I hear you, Nancy but no way am I doing all of this WORK. Trust me, I hear you. Yes, it is work. It is a process of trial and error of catching yourself and regrouping. And it does get easier over time. The cycles get shorter, and you can catch your Monger or your BFF talking much faster. But here’s the thing, not doing the work, allowing your Monger to run the show is also exhausting. Feeling like you are constantly behind and beating yourself up for it all day long ad nauseum is also exhausting. Feeling disconnected from those closest to you, trapped in your head, and constantly hustling is also exhausting. It is a choice some days, we hit out of the park, we are grounded, present, and able to call in our Biggest Fan, and some days we are living in Mongerville and unable to recognize that we are constantly shaming and belittling ourselves. So yes, this is work, and yes, it is so worth it.

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If you don’t do it, who will? If you’re not hustling, pushing, and keeping it all together yourself, nothing will get done.

Look, you don’t need me to tell you that. You tell yourself every day. There’s that voice inside your head constantly pushing you to do more, be more, and get closer to perfect.

And there are all the people--your family, friends, and random people on the street--who congratulate you on how productive you are.

Mixed messages, am I right?

I know I’m right because I’ve dealt with high-functioning anxiety too. I know what it’s like to relish the accolades that come your way one minute and shame yourself for being so tired and overwhelmed the next.

And, I’ve been working with women like you living with hidden anxiety every day for over 20 years as a coach and counselor.

I wrote The Happier Approach to give you a framework for dealing with your anxiety and start living happier.

The Happier Approach will help you understand the voices in your head and what to do with them. It’s not another woo-woo self-help book that asks you to think positively and live your best life. It’s a practical guidebook for getting out of survival mode and finding a genuinely happy and productive life.

Know someone who has High Functioning Anxiety and a VERY LOUD Monger. The Happier Approach makes a great gift.

Find The Happier Approach on Amazon, Audible, or Barnes & Noble!

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